Talk:Best Starting Weapons (EU)

Proposal to formalize discussion into an article

Just copying the original discussion here so that it's not lost.

I was wondering if this section should take a similar format like what I did for the TFTD starting weapons section? Perhaps not exactly like it, but a presentation of the various weapons and a discussions on their pros and cons, then a conclusion. Mainly to convert it from its present form of a discussion into an actual article.

Spike, since you kicked it off, would that be fine with you?

-NKF 02:00, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Hi NKF. Thanks for asking. Yes that's a good idea, fine with me. Some of my own language definitely needs cleaning up as this reads a bit too much like a journal entry. Feel free to cut at will! If I get time I will do some edits myself too. Spike 08:53, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Original Discussion

Until recently my view was that the AutoCannon was the best standard-issue starting weapon and I gave it to every soldier strong enough to carry one; everyone else got a Rifle. Having run some numbers, I think this is probably wrong. For early-game scenarios involving mainly Floaters and Sectoids (including their associated terror units), I would now say that:

1. The Pistol is probably better than the Rifle. It has slightly better firepower, plus the advantage of improved Experience gain, the flexibility with grenades or other items in the second hand, more likely to get off a reaction shot, and of course lower cost to own and operate (a minor consideration). The only real downside is less ammo (more frequent reloads, more Transport space). The only thing in the Rifle's favour is the auto mode, and that only generates greater firepower in close range situations where accuracy can be ignored. For medium range shots, Snap fire from a Pistol (or Rifle) is far more effective than Auto fire from a Rifle.
2. The Heavy Cannon is probably better than the Auto Cannon. It has 50% better firepower than the Rifle, Pistol, or AutoCannon. It is cheaper to own and operate than the AutoCannon, and is superior in reaction fire (snap fire) firepower. It has the best first-shot-kill capability. It has much greater terrain-clearing capabilities (both AP and HE). It can even step up to tackling Mutons, with some degree of success. The only advantages the Auto Cannon has over it are ammo capacity, and the rare use of HE in auto mode when accuracy can be ignored. The downside is the 6-rd ammo limitation, and fewer reaction shot opportunities (though those shots have the best effectiveness, on average). But overcoming that downside will build up soldiers' Strength, rapidly!
3. In conclusion, I would make the combination of the Pistol and Heavy Cannon the standard starting personal weapons. The Pistol favours Experience and flexibility; the Heavy Cannon favours pure all-round firepower.
4. The AutoCannon would not be standard-issue. It would be retained only for 1-2 soldiers as a special weapon (such as for illuminating with IC, or possibly fighting Reapers or Mutons with HE on auto). Similarly you also need Rocket Launchers as special heavy weapons, grenades/explosives, Stun Rods for captures, etc.

NB - I am defining "firepower" as "average armour-adjusted damage delivered on target per unit of time".

Spike 19:03, 6 December 2008 (CST)

Don't disagree with much here, but if you use the Incendiary Exploit, the Autocannon can more than hold its own. Arrow Quivershaft 19:58, 6 December 2008 (CST)

The biggest drawback to the heavy weapons is weight which you pointed out, Spike. Just did a breakdown of the HC and 81% of starting rookies can carry it (without encumberance playing a role) with 1 clip, 52% with 2 clips and 24% with 3 clips. (I don't remember if clip weight is ignored if it is loaded into a weapon, so these percentages are based off the worst-case scenario). As for the Auto-Cannon, 81% can carry it with 1 clip, 57% with 2 clips and 33% with 3 clips. Because the AC can be carried by more soldiers due to it's lower overall clip weight, it should get the nod over the HC in that respect. Then again, if a soldier needs multiple clips for any of these weapons and are too weak to carry the excess, I suppose you could have some of those Pistol-toting freaks be pack mules. --Zombie 04:35, 7 December 2008 (CST)

Due to a bug, the first clip loaded by the game (usually AP) during the Equip phase does not count for Encumbrance. So this widens the range of rookies who can carry a (minimally) loaded AC or HC. If you unload/reload the weapon, the clip weight is from then on counted against Encumbrance.

I think you are right that ammo and clip carrying capacity the a key issue. Using AC will allow you to carry 2-3 times as many rounds, and also have more diverse ammo types for each soldier. But the extra 50% firepower is hard to argue with it. I'm going to give it a try and see if the firepower boost compensates for the ammo constraints. I tend to use a 14 man squad and I think the weight constraint will be less of a problem than it would be with a 6 man squad for example. But the best thing to do is test it, so I will test it. Spike 08:03, 7 December 2008 (CST)

Doesn't the rifle do 4 more points of the same type of damage as the pistol?--(name here) 08:55, 7 December 2008 (CST)

Yes, the Rifle does 30 damage and the pistol does 26, both Armor Piercing. But the point being made by Spike is that for the TUs spent, the Pistol (being the fastest snapshot weapon in the game) dishes damage out faster in snap mode, so long as its connecting. The Rifle, on the other hand, has Auto fire, a larger clip, and a very accurate(and slow) Aimed mode.

Also, this post is my entry into the 1000 edits club. :) Arrow Quivershaft 11:52, 7 December 2008 (CST)

Base accuracy vs RoF

My thinking has shifted a little (again), due to discussions with Mike The Red, Zombie and others about the accuracy formula - in particular, the probability of 'missed' shots hitting the target anyway.

This factor shifts the emphasis in the relative contribution of weapon stats to overall firepower - base accuracy is less important, rate of fire more important.

One result is that the gap between Auto Cannon and Heavy Cannon becomes too close to call, and very much a matter of style and the specific tactical situation. HC is still the best (starting) long range sniper weapon, but AC gains a lot of ground in the close range "shock" scenarios. Spike 09:03, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Another mix

These days I'm thinking

• Pistols for scouts - forward observers who move in to unsecured areas in order to detect the enemy. They probably don't carry grenades, they just keep a hand free for others to toss them a primed grenade. They might carry a flare, but again a flare could be thrown to them. The spare hand could also usefully use a motion scanner or a medikit (for looking through walls).
• Heavy Cannon AP for snipers - the most effective, most lethal weapon at long range (apart from a rocket, and rockets can get messy).
• Auto Cannon AP for assault troops - entering UFOs or unsecured buildings. The most lethal weapon at close range.
• HE weapons are only for special use. Too much risk of friendly fire and damage to loot. At the start of the game, it's cheaper to lose soldiers than lose loot.
• Forget Rifles unless you know it will be a Sectoid-only mission. I was just fighting a Floater mission and on Superhuman the Floaters are too tough, especially on front armour, to take down reliably with Rifles, or Pistols, or Grenades. You can't give them a chance to fire back, you need a first shot kill. This means Heavy Cannon at long range, Auto Cannon at short range.
• Actually for stronger Scouts, AC-AP is not a bad choice. If they encounter something that needs them to kill it themselves, it tends to be fairly close.
• When the Reapers show up, you load up the HE of course. They have no loot to lose. And if your soldiers get close to them, they're toast anyway, so friendly fire is less of an issue.
• Rocket Launcher (Lg, HE) as the "super sniper" for when many enemies are revealed simultaneously. And of course for anti-Cyberdisk duty.
• A couple of stun rods, even when Alien Containment isn't built yet, for neutralising Cyberdisks (though they normally don't show up until the end of the month and you should have Area 51 built by then).
• Given the weight bug in the game, any rookie soldier can carry an HC or AC loaded with one clip, which usually defaults to AP (unless you don't have enough to go round). If they have minimum strength of 20, they won't be able to carry anything else, but someone stronger can carry spares, flares and grenades.
• So it's quite possible to dispense with Rifles and Pistols from the outset, and arm everyone either with an HC for rear/sniper work, an AC for scout/assault work.

One thing I need to test though, is whether using these heavy weapons works when you are trying to move forward. Moving forward uses TUs and there is often not enough TUs left to get off even a single snap shot or single burst. I guess you would need to reserve auto / reserve snap. But this would slow your rate of advance vs using pistol-armed scouts. It's a trade off I guess between scout survival and speed of advance. Then again, speed of advance is not that important in XCom, since the enemies don't seem to coordinate or mass together much, they are more or less just waiting around in their own area, waiting to kill or be killed. Spike 18:56, 22 July 2009 (EDT)