Talk:Real-Time vs Turn-Based (Apocalypse)

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Dual weild in TB

Technically you can dual wield and fire pairs of weapons in TB by using the shift-LMB approach to firing the selected agent's weapons. The game alternates between the weapons (not sure if it's a left, right, left, right alternations or if the off-hand weapon is fired at specific intervals).

I don't know if there any benefits to doing it this way (like decreased costs), but I just thought I'd point that out. You're still probably better off with a single weapon, unless you want every other shot to be a special round such as stun bolt or toxigun round.

Also, though I'm generally a RT player, I do have a few comments. RT is generally a faster play then TB (since they programmers neglected to include any time compression settings ala X-Com's first two games). I've also seen a lot of players mention that TB is quite an ideal environment for capturing aliens (tough ones like Megaspawn for example). It can be just as easy in RT, but with the freedom you get with the amount of time you get to make and execute your plans, I really can't argue with that. It's also a great mode to hot-seat co-op with a friend!

-NKF 23:05, 14 April 2008 (PDT)

  • I think stun gas works better in TB. i've noticed that almost anything weaker than a multiworm in a TB gas cloud drops, but the RT gas cloud is not nearly so effective.--(name here) 04:10, 15 April 2008 (PDT)
Indeed, it is quite effective since it applies a generous amount of stun damage against any unit that walks into a tile with a stun gas cloud in it. It's also a lot easier to catch an alien in a stun cloud in TB. In RT you have to have the right environment or if you're out in the open you have to get your timing just right, which adds to the difficulty.
Unfortunately (or should I say fortunately?) in TB, units standing still in a stun cloud won't notice a thing! Of course, in RT your unit will automatically try to flee from a stun cloud than stand still. - NKF 05:12, 15 April 2008 (PDT)

I prefer RT over TB almost always, even though I love turn-based games. The RT mode just feels a lot more exiting than TB. You just don't get to see the cool changing Hidden Movement-screens in RT. ( well, the pictures themselves may not be so cool, but atleast they change... )
But in general I have to agree with the TB loss-count. Agents cannot act ( through your commands ) realistically in TB; your supposed to try find cover as soon as a threat emerges, not after the threat has moved and fired a few shots without reaction fire...
Doesn't stun gas also dissapear a lot faster in TB? ( in a few turns or so )
And I'm assuming left is the off-hand.
--Karp 02:53, 18 August 2008 (PDT)

Perverse TU Breakpoints

There are some perverse TU breakpoints in TB, due to integer rounding and the fact that some actions (auto fire) require such a small % of total TUs. For example, an Agent with TUs in the low 40s can fire about 50% more rounds autofiring a Lawpistol than an Agent wth TUs in the low 60s. This is because the TU cost per shot is rounded down to 1 vs 2 - a 100% difference.

Hopefully this does not carry over into RT?

This bug would probably not occur if they had stuck to 3 rd bursts as the minimum Autofire action. Or they could have tracked fractional TUs, but that would make the TB interface a bit strange.

There's probably an even worse change right on the breakpoint, say between 49 and 50 TUs, where one Agent has twice the firepower of the other ( as long as he has a backpack full of ammo).

Spike 13:58, 16 October 2008 (CDT)

It, ahem, carries over differently. While you don't have the hyperfast Marsec M-4000 autofire (1 TU at 66 MP, 2 TU at 67 MP -- keyed by going from 7TU aimed to 8TU aimed), you do have grossly nonlinear speed changes with weight (RT speed := INT(TB speed/8)*8).
I do not recommend trying to dodge large rockets while framestepping in RT with an RT speed of less than 56. RT speed 64 is better. -- Zaimoni 18:29, 16 Oct 2008 (CDT)

Wiki author RT bias

What's with the RT bias on this wiki? "TB mode unfortunately falls to its RT counterpart as the game appears to be geared more towards RT than it is for TB. This leaves this mode severely lacking and unpolished. But it certainly isn't unplayable." wtf is that? In what way is the game geared towards RT? In what way is TB unpolished? It's more or less the same TBS that made UFO: Enemy Unknown famous. I really don't see any basis for such comments. "TB is a slower method of combat, that unfortunately can be a lot messier in combat." Which of TB or RT is "messier in combat" depends very much on your playstyle. The article is currently called 'Real-Time vs Turn-Based'. I suggest that it be renamed to 'Rantings of an opinionated RT player.' Karadoc 09:01, 12 January 2010 (EST)

I agree that there is a bias towards RT on the current content of this article, definitely due to the authors' personal preferences. I myself prefer RT over TB on Apocalypse (but I haven't written any of the material present on this page, I think). There's always room for improvement on the wiki and I'd suggest if you could describe, in your opinion what are the advantages (or disadvantages) of TB over RT on the TB section. I think ideally this article could be more concise, e.g. have a table listing agreed upon characteristics of both styles without discussing which one is better. Hobbes 13:18, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Ok.. I've actually completely rewritten the article. I don't like doing this, because it might upset whoever put their time into writing it in the first place, but I suppose rewriting it is more productive than just complaining about it. I felt that most of the dot points were either wrong or irrelevant, so after I had deleted all the stuff I didn't like there wasn't much left - which is why I ended up rewriting it completely. I've tried to cover the basics of how each mode feels, without bias. Obviously a lot more detail could be given for each mode, but I figure that any extra detail would be much better suited to the individual articles on the two modes. I'm fairly happy with the content of my new version, but I suspect my writing style is a bit crappy... Karadoc 21:32, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Heh, I think your initial reaction to it would be more upsetting to the authors than the perfectly valid point you were conveying. A rewrite is as good as a vacation. Don't worry if what you've done is rough around the edges. As with the very first articles that ever appeared on this wiki, it can always be improved as we go along.
Be mindful that much of the content in the Apocalypse section is relatively new compared to the other two games. For a long time the majority of the Apocalypse articles consisted of red links, empty stub pages or short paragraphs that amounted to works in progress or brainstorming scratch pads. Less care was taken with the opinions then as this was well before the NPOV stance we've since adopted. Feel free to zap them or bring attention to them if you run across any of the legacy Apocalypse articles. -NKF 02:11, 13 January 2010 (EST)
I completely subscribe NKF's points. The wiki and its contents do not belong to anyone and as mentioned in the Guidelines_to_writing_articles anyone that is on the pages can be edited if you have a valid reason to do so. Btw, I changed the wording on the page from 'strategic' to 'tactical' advantages, to better fit the common definition of both terms :) Hobbes 10:50, 13 January 2010 (EST)

I've put a bit more thought into the matter, and I must say that real-time has a few more bells and whistles attached to it. I'll run off a list of a few things that came to mind and see what you chaps think. This is by no means a comprehensive list as they all came to mind during my brief lunch break. Add, correct or comment as necessary. -NKF 01:37, 15 January 2010 (EST)

  • Dual wield - present in TB (shift+click target), but not modelled right. Only effect is weapons alternate fire at normal TU cost with reduced accuracy for 2h weapons. RT has both weapons operating at usual rate of fire, with a one cycle lag for the off-hand weapon.
  • Base defence guns - non-operational in TB, but still act as decoys.
  • Firing time costs. As mentioned earlier in this page, some weapons have rounding problems in TB that make them expensive at certain TU break points. This is not really a new issue and has been around since UFO/TFTD. RT firing rate is uniform regardless of TU level.
  • Auto-sidestepping behind wall when reacting in neutral stance - not present in TB.
  • Walking + Shooting - not something that can be easily mimicked in TB, but in effect gives RT an additional 'cheaper' firing mode as it combines two actions into one at the cost of accuracy.
  • Walk waypoints - identical in both modes
  • Issuing group orders - identical in both modes
  • Inventory usage costs - RT is imbalanced as it costs nothing to access and move items about.
  • Evading missiles in mid-flight or shooting off brainsuckers in mid-suck - not available in TB. Also can't pick up boomeroids to throw them back (then again in RT it doesn't really work very often).
  • Reaction override - not possible in TB. In RT agents can be ordered to attack immediately rather than wait for them to act by themselves.
  • Group awareness - One slam against agent control in RT is that if one person sees an enemy, all other nearby units in firing range will turn to face the enemy. This is bad if you are watching your back for poppers. Need to check if this is the case in TB.
  • Shroud of war removal - Unlike UFO/TFTD, the fog of war is lifted in blocks (i.e. the whole room) rather than the precise tiles that have been viewed. This is not a problem in TB, but in RT there is sometimes a delay before the shroud is lifted even if your agent is staring directly into the area. Seems to occur for spotting enemies that are in full view as well.
  • Standing still in stun gas cloud - in TB no stun damage is taken. Only take stun damage when walking into a stun gas patch. In RT, if standing in the cloud, you are damaged each time the game does an update (that cracking noise).
  • Relative Motion Scanning - Unsure if possible in TB.
  • Grenade 'impact' setting - Directly accessible in TB. Can only access by mouse shortcut in RT.
  • Mid-air grenade detonation - RT only
  • Psi maintenance cost - TB psi attacks have instant effect on successful attempt. RT requires maintenance costs.

A couple of quick responses for you:

  • I think the 'group awareness' thing still applies in TB. Agents will turn and fire if their buddy is under attack.
  • It's still possible to shoot a brain-sucker off someone's head in TB with reaction fire.
  • About the fog of war thing, I'm pretty sure that it still only reveals the tiles that you can see but there is definitely a delay. In TB mode I usually pause for a moment whenever I enter a new room or turn around, because sometime the alien sightings are not instant.
  • There are no inventory usage cost for most action in TB mode either. Changing weapons, reloading, priming and dropping grenades, are all free. However, picking and item up off the floor is not free.
  • I don't remember what motion scanners is like in TB mode. I never use them. The aliens are easy enough to find anyway, and if they are standing still then the motion scanner doesn't help...
  • About 'reaction override', I'm really not sure what you mean. It's clear that you can't issue new commands in TB when it is not your turn, is that all you're talking about? If you just mean that you can command your units to attack without having to wait for them to do it themselves, both modes have that.
  • Simultaneous walking + shooting, it's true that it's missing in TB, but to be honest I'd never ever use it anyway. Accuracy is reduced while walking, so it is far better in TB to just run to where you want to shoot from and then fire while standing still.
  • About the maintenance cost for psi.. the cost is sort of present in TB as well - it just deducts it all at once. For example, in RT mode if you do a stun attack, it will gradually use up your energy while it applies more and more stun damage to your target. In TB the stun attack will usually use up all of your psi-energy at once and the amount of stun damage it does depends on how much energy was used up. Same kind of deal for mind control; in TB, if you can barely afford the mind control attack then you will only get a couple of time units to use with the target unit. If you have more energy you will get more time units of control. So the costs are basically the same, it just spends it all in one hit for TB mode.

Karadoc 02:09, 15 January 2010 (EST)

* Relative motion scanning works fine in TB.
* Yes, reaction fire works fine vs. brainsuckers in TB. This means that M4000 (TU 45-66) and Lawpistol (TU 44-) in autofire mode are optimal as covering fire vs. brainsuckers. Even better, both of these weapons are ineffective vs. Megapol and Disruptor armor, it's just a matter of conserving reactions.
-- Zaimoni 11:23, 15 Jan 2010 (CST)