Talk:Unit Stats (Apocalypse)

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Should we rename this article to "Enemy Stats" or even rename it "Unit Stats" and stick the starting stats of Agents on here? Magic9mushroom (talk) 11:09, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

I'd support "Unit Stats", as the table already includes civilians, and the other humans aren't necessarily enemies. Just add a note that the values for XCOM agents are starting stats, and stats for XCOM non-combatants and turrets. Oh, and there's the Sectoid prisoners in the alien dimension - I think they use civilian stats but I'm not sure. Darkpast (talk) 16:38, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The Sectoids might use the starting stats for Hybrids; Hybrids are listed as Alien Grey in the files, after all. Of course, it doesn't matter what their stats are since they don't do anything.
And yeah, I was planning on adding the caps as well, since I know all of them now. Magic9mushroom (talk) 17:00, 24 May 2020 (UTC)


Is Speed really irrelevant for immobile units? Isn't it at least used for reaction fire in Turn-Based, or does Apocalypse use a different formula? Darkpast (talk) 10:02, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't know the exact formula for reaction fire in Apoc, but the one from UFO/TFTD works off percentage of TU remaining. Aside from rounding-error issues, the only things for which your quantity of TU matters are things that depend on the actual amount of TU (rather than percentage) - and AFAIK fixed costs in Apoc only apply to movement. Now, technically there is an issue with rounding error on TU costs for firing weapons (e.g. someone with 66 TU spends 1 TU to autofire the M4000, while someone with 67 spends 2 TU) but the immobile aliens and security stations use weapons with low RoF so it's not that blatant. Magic9mushroom (talk) 10:56, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Speed and TUs

My testing reveals that what's called "Speed" in Apoc'd actually refers to the TUs used in turn-based mode. According to data gathered by using the Mind Bender at Medium difficulty, actual real-time Speed seems to be different. Here are the results of the testing:

Alien / TUs / Real time Speed
Multiworm / 48 / 48
Hyperworm / 88 / 88
Anthropod / 60 / 56
Skeletoid / 96 / 80
Spitter / 59 / 56
Megaspawn / 54 / 56
Popper 118 / 112
Psimorph 38 / 40
Micronoids 32 / 40
Immobile units have Speed = 0

It appears that the game takes TUs and rounds them to the nearest number divisible by 8 to get real-time Speed. Darkpast (talk) 13:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't look like rounding, particularly not the way X-Com always does rounding (i.e. truncation). Some of them go up and the Skeletoid isn't even close.
I'd suggest testing this kind of thing on Beginner difficulty, since you don't have to worry about difficulty level adjustment there. Once you've got that figured out, then going to the higher difficulties is useful. Magic9mushroom (talk) 14:26, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, I've totally missed the Skeletoid... I'll try again at Beginner, but I guess I need a break first. Darkpast (talk) 14:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Okay, with some hacking (putting all the aliens in a building on Cityscape, then assigning them to X-COM during the mission) on Beginner I got this:
Alien TUs Displayed Speed
Non-moving w/e 0
Brainsucker 90 88
Multiworm 45 48
Hyperworm 82 80
Anthropod 56 56
Skeletoid 86 88
Spitter 55 56
Popper 110 112
Megaspawn 50 48
Psimorph 36 40
Micronoid 30 40
The weird bit is that in Apoc'd they all still come up as having their TU amount, and the ones whose speed is above (8*(TU/8)) show the excess 8 or 16 as a speed improvement. That Micronoid is making me suspect that either something weird's going on, or there's a floor of 40 for real-time displayed speed; the rest is consistent with rounding (actual rounding, to wit).
Of course, another question is "do they use the speed in the game files or the speed you see displayed". Magic9mushroom (talk) 15:11, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
On Superhuman, on the other hand, we have:
Alien TUs Displayed Speed
Brainsucker 104 104
Multiworm 52 48
Hyperworm 95 96
Anthropod 64 64
Skeletoid 99 96
Spitter 63 64
Popper 127 112
Megaspawn 58 56
Psimorph 41 40
Micronoid 34 40
Conclusions I can draw are that it probably is rounded (with a multiple of 4 rounding down), the min and max seem to be 40 and 112, and that I can't explain your Skeletoid result unless you accidentally looked at its current Speed rather than maximum Speed (Skeletoids have terrible Strength, so they're frequently encumbered). Magic9mushroom (talk) 15:33, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
You are indeed correct, turns out I accidentally put in the Skeletoid's current speed. Also, it seems that the same rounding process is applied to X-COM Agents, as my agent had Speed 71 in Cityscape, but 72 when I began a real-time mission. Darkpast (talk) 17:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Difficulty adjustment

Via some messing around with Apoc'd I was able to figure out this much.

Speed, Health, Stamina and Reactions all get +4% of base value per difficulty level, rounded down.

Accuracy gets -4% of base value per difficulty level, rounded down. Note that this is acting on the data value, so e.g. an Anthropod, with 100 inaccuracy = 0 accuracy, goes at Superhuman to 84 inaccuracy = 16 accuracy and a Skeletoid, with 70 inaccuracy = 30 accuracy goes at Superhuman to 58.8 rounded down to 58 inaccuracy = 42 accuracy.

Strength and Bravery stay the same.

Psi-energy I'm not sure about, because I've only got one solid datapoint in the Micronoid Aggregate; turns out that Psi-energy is capped at 100 so the Psimorph's "170" is irrelevant.

Psi-attack seems to be 1% of base value per difficulty level, but with only two solid datapoints I'm not really sure.

Psi-defence is... weird. It definitely goes up, and units with a higher base value go up by more, but it doesn't seem to be proportional. I do know it's capped at 100 and the Hyperworm reaches that at Superhuman.

I can't check armour values with Apoc'd, so I don't know if they're affected. Magic9mushroom (talk) 08:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

The Psimorph's Psi Psi Energy seems to come from Roger Wong's guide, but it's never above 100 in Apoc'd or, as you say, in-game. I think we can correct the table value to 100.
(Current?) Armor values do appear in Apoc'd; it's just that they're marked "Unknown 23-27". They are affected by difficulty (listed as head/torso/arms/legs) and appear to increase proportionally:
Alien Novice Easy Medium Hard Superhuman
Alien Egg & Brainsucker 5/5/5/5 5/5/5/5 6/6/6/6 7/7/7/7 8/8/8/8
Multiworm 3/8/8/7 3/9/9/8 3/10/10/9 4/11/11/10 4/13/13/11
Hyperworm & Popper 7/7/7/7 8/8/8/8 9/9/9/9 10/10/10/10 11/11/11/11
Anthropod 5/6/6/5 5/6/6/5 6/7/7/6 7/8/8/7 8/9/9/8
Skeletoid 14/16/14/15 16/18/16/17 18/21/18/19 20/23/20/22 22/26/22/24
Spitter 7/7/7/6 8/8/8/6 9/9/9/7 10/10/10/8 11/11/11/9
Megaspawn 28/37/30/43 32/42/34/39 36/48/39/44 41/54/44/50 45/60/49/55
Psimorph 10/10/10/10 11/11/11/11 13/13/13/13 14/14/14/14 16/16/16/16
Queenspawn 30/30/30/30 34/34/34/34 39/39/39/39 44/44/44/44 49/49/49/49
(Micronoids have no armor)
Also, human enemy and even civilian stats are affected by difficulty as well, though it's difficult to say how due to them having randomized stats. Darkpast (talk) 08:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
That looks like 16% per difficulty level. I knew about the human enemies being difficulty-adjusted, which is why I said the psi-active aliens were the only "solid" datapoints. The armour matches the progression, though, so the others probably do too. I hadn't really thought to check the civilian stats, because it's hard to think of a situation where they actually matter.
The Psimorph is listed as 170 in the base stats (in the "Cityscape"/"Battlescape" sections of Apoc'd). It's there in the game files; it just gets overridden when the unit is actually initialised. Magic9mushroom (talk) 09:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Right, I was only looking at the save data. But it gave me an idea. I took three non-psi aliens and assigned them psi energy and psi attack scores. Here's what the difficulty adjustment produced (novice-easy-medium-hard-superhuman):
Psi Energy
Psi Attack

Darkpast (talk) 17:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Looks like 2% and 1%, which is about what I figured. Magic9mushroom (talk) 09:43, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Excellent, so now we have all the formulas except Psi Defence, which I can't figure out either.
Multiworm 75/77/80/83/86
Hyperworm 90/92/95/98/100
Anthropod 40/42/44/47/49
Skeletoid 55/57/60/62/65
Psimorph 80/82/85/88/91
Micronoids 85/87/90/93/96 Darkpast (talk) 16:49, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
About all I can guess is +(2 + 1%) per level; it fits all of those (the Hyperworm's obviously capped out), and the results if you hack an alien to 0 Psi-defence (you get 8 at Superhuman). It's just weird for one stat to have a different term to all the rest (and a fairly-minor stat at that). Magic9mushroom (talk) 00:49, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Good enough - thanks for all the work you put into this. Darkpast (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for getting me off my butt regarding the Apocalypse section; I'd been letting it sit for way too long. You've done some decent work yourself as well. Magic9mushroom (talk) 06:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Engineering/Biochemistry/Quantum Physics skills

Should these be mentioned here? I've thought about making a page for the technical personnel (in which case the skills would go there), but I'm not sure whether it's worth it. Any thoughts? Darkpast (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)