Talk:Alien Stats
Welcome to the new Alien Stats page
To those involved in the discussion moved here from Under The Hood: there's a lot to tie together before there is a consensus on a final set of stats. Either that, or, I'm easily confused... which is probably the more likely choice of the two. :P
I hope no one minds me making a new page. If you have better ideas for naming or placing it, please speak up. In the meantime, until things get clarified (see below), I don't want to work on this actual Page yet. The plan is to work out the major differences here in Discussion, then post to the Page once things are clarified. - MTR
Here is a summary and snippets from the Under The Hood discussion:
I'd like to have alien stats as seen in the USG Section 9.0 broken out by rank and game difficulty. - MTR
For what it's worth, I have been dilligently working on just this topic for a while now (each and every stat personally verified by myself). I'm over 3/4 done, with only Superhuman left. Gimme a little bit to get it all pulled together. --Zombie 21:39, 10 Nov 2005 (PST)
There's an Excel table made by a guy that contains all the stats, including the differences between levels. You can get it here --Hobbes 23:18, 10 Nov 2005 (PST)
Question: Stats or overview?
It looks like an authoritative page on alien statistics is being built here. However, the name of the page is "overview" and it links from the Alien page as such. If a new user comes to the page and clicks a link called "overview," he's probably looking for just that-- an overview. A detailed statisistical analysis is probably not what he expects or is looking for.
I'd suggest that this page gets renamed to "Alien Stats" or such, and a different page gets made that serves as a general overview-- like the thing I suggested below.
Notes/Discussion re: a unified Alien Stats list
These notes are as much simply notes to myself (MTR), as they are for others. You will see why I'm in such a state of confusion that I don't know what to put on the Page for this discussion.
GEOSCAPE/XcomUtil data
The data found in XcomUtil.cfg's AlienStats section EXACTLY matches data found in GEOSCAPE.EXE (start position 379,729; reclen 39; 33 records). Not a single difference in byte values. Indeed, XcomUtil (Xcu) didn't bother to sort the records or move the columns in any way. This is for XCOM DOS 1.4. We can only presume Xcu did the same thing for its TFTD data. However, I have seen at least a few differences in this data vs. what I've seen in the game... and as mentioned, it does not have difficulty levels; just one set of alien race+rank. Note that Xcu/GEO have quite a few more fields than can be seen with e.g. a Mind Probe. Let me (MTR) know if you want a copy.
Aztec's Spreadsheet
Aztec's spreadsheet on Hobbes' site has many of the same fields as the Geo data, so he might've hacked it too. Hobbes, do you have a contact for Aztec by any chance? We should invite him... who knows if s/he's still interested, though. I have it in Excel/Access if anybody wants it.
I got it from a russian website some time ago. I can try to find it again if you want it.
Z has said that basically Aztec copied the OSG. Still, if you want, you can try to contact Aztec. Entirely up to you, Hobbes, we don't care. But maybe Aztec would like to join in. FWIW it was a trip to see Cyrillic notes.
The site I took it from was this one. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a contact for Aztec. But then I don't really care also :)
Hobbes 07:52, 12 Nov 2005 (PST)
Comparing Geo to Aztec
Since everyone has access to Aztec's spreadsheet, it's not really necessary to have the Geo one (though I'm happy to send it to you). Here are all the differences:
- Inherent Differences:
- Aztec has all five diffulty levels; Geo only has one. I wonder if this means alien stats can be easily based off of one set of core stats.
- Aztec has info on Zombies, Geo does not. Conversely, Geo has two entries for civilians and a tank and hovertank entry; Aztec doesn't have any of these. Thus Geo has 33 records for XCOM (and Xcu has 28 for TFTD, presumably also from TFTD's Geo), while Aztec has 30 records for XCOM, times 5 for Difficulty equals 150 records.
- Geo has approximately a dozen more fields than Aztec. I think it's stuff like "float" and some others we've figured out, as well as some unknowns, and a few potential garbage/unused fields (e.g. all 0). Keep in mind that Geo is a dump of Geo... not a tailored end report.
- Bytes that are always different: Comparing the two, we see that there are fixed bytes that are always the same in Aztec, but different from Geo (does not change with Aztec Difficulty level):
- Sectopod, Health: Aztec 120 - Geo 96 = 24
- Reaper, Bravery: Aztec 80 - 90 = -10
- Floater Commander, Melee Accuracy: Aztec 70 - Geo 76 = -6
- Floater Leader, Aggression: Aztec 1 - Geo 2 = -1
- Floater Leader, Intelligence: Aztec 6 - Geo 72 = -1
- Systematic differences: I don't know what to make of these, but there they are. (Why only be different at one level, or at all levels except one?)
- Geo has twice the Firing Accuracy and twice the Armor, vs. Aztec Beginner level. But not versus its other levels(?!). FWIW, my in-game experience matches Aztec - but I am using DOS XCOM 1.4, which means I'm locked into Beginner even though I selected Experienced, right?
- EXCEPT for Celatid and Chryssalid, Firing Accuracy and Armor. Here, Aztec and Geo agree at Beginner, and Aztec is twice Geo, at all higher levels. See how confused I am? hehe.
- I wonder if Aztec made some assumptions and interpolated incorrectly... or could Geo itself somehow be wrong? At least in terms of directly snarfing its bytes... who knows what additional post-processing goes on, and I know that my experience matches Aztec's (but is my game at Beginner or Experienced? sigh)
Aztec's Data Across Difficulty Levels
Aztec has 30 different records for each difficulty level, as follows:
# Race Rank 1 Celatid 2 Chryssalid 3 CyberDisk 4 Ethereal Commander 5 Ethereal Leader 6 Ethereal Soldier 7 Floater Commander 8 Floater Engineer 9 Floater Leader 10 Floater Medic 11 Floater Navigator 12 Floater Soldier 13 Muton Engineer 14 Muton Navigator 15 Muton Soldier 16 Reaper 17 Sectoid Commander 18 Sectoid Engineer 19 Sectoid Leader 20 Sectoid Medic 21 Sectoid Navigator 22 Sectoid Soldier 23 Sectopod 24 Silacoid 25 Snakeman Commander 26 Snakeman Engineer 27 Snakeman Leader 28 Snakeman Navigator 29 Snakeman Soldier 30 Zombie
Thus there are 150 records in his "database", for the five levels. And a potential 150 unique values for each type of alien statistic. But do all aliens have different values for each statistic? No.
- Stats that never change: Comparing across Aztec's five levels, here are alien stats that do not change across Difficulty level, although they can be different for the 30 different types of aliens. IOW, an Ethereal Commander's Health will be the same from Beginner to Superhuman, but its value can be different from an Ethereal Leader's Health:
- Health
- Bravery
- Throwing Accuracy
- Melee a.k.a. Close Combat Accuracy
- Can Fly
- Aggression - see UNITREF.DAT[44]
- Intelligence - UNITREF[73]
- Score Value (Mission Points for death or 2x for capture)
- Stats that sometimes change: The first makes sense. The other, I wonder about:
- Psi Skill - This is zero for most aliens at all Difficulties (25 alien race+ranks in all). The other 5 race+ranks all have differing values at each Difficulty level: All Ethereals (Commander, Leader, Soldier), and two Sectoids (Commander, Leader). 25+5x5=50 unique values total across the 150 records.
- Armor - This is an odd one. For all five armor places (front, left, right, rear, under), everyone has one value at Beginner level, and then twice the Beginner armor level, for the four higher levels. Total unique values across the 150 records is 60 (30 at Beginner, 30 at another armor level, for the other four Difficulty levels).
- Exceptions to stats that always differ across Difficulty levels: Past the stats listed above, all the other stats have many unique values across the 150 records. There are only two stats which have 150 unique values across all 150 records: Strength and Psi Strength. The exceptions to not being unique, generally make sense.
- TUs: Chyrssalid is 124 at both Genius and Superhuman. 149 unique values.
- Stamina/Energy: Zombie is 124 at Genius and Superhuman. 149 unique values.
- Reactions: All six Sectoid ranks (Soldier, Medic, Nav, Eng, Ldr, Cdr) are 74 at Gen and SH. 144 values.
- Firing Accuracy: The Chrysallid, Reaper, Silacoid, and Zombie all have 0; everyone else has unique values. No surprise, since they are melee only. But it reduces the usual count of five distinct values for these four Terrorists across Difficulty levels to 4 instead of 20; thus 134 unique values.
Danial's Discoveries
Here's what I've just found regarding skill level increases, though it's far from concrete:
Stat Increase Per Skill Level TUs 5% Health 0% (constant) Stamina 5% Reactions 5% Strength 5% Bravery 0% (constant) Firing Acc. 100%; 5%* Throwing Acc. 0% (constant) Close Acc. 0% (constant) Armour 100%** (constant @ >=Exp. Skill) Psi Skill 5% Psi Strength 5% Aggression 0% (constant) Intelligence 0% (constant) Note: These %'s are integers, so 5% of 52 = 2.6, which will add only 2TUs, resulting in 54. *Doubles from Beginner to Experience, plus 5%; then 5% each following skill level. **Doubles from Beginner to Experienced, and then remains constant.
We could sure use some Good Data, Z :)
Looking forward to your data Z. I sure hope you can lay some of my confusion to rest.
Anyone else is welcome to join in, of course!
I have known of Aztec's spreadsheet for a while now. It's good, but all the stats are just yanked out of the OSG. (Do you see a problem here)? I do. The OSG has been known to be wrong before. The alien stat sheet is no different. From my verifications, some of those numbers are not correct. I think that might explain some of the trouble.
The reason why you only see one set of stats in the game files is because the game only needs one set - like you guessed, the other levels are calculated off this "base" value. The OSG for Enemy Unknown doen't say anything about this, but the OSG for TFTD does verify that the stats are calculated with base modifiers. (I must mention that TFTD is harder at superhuman because the modifications are higher - the "base" level is assumed to be Veteran in TFTF, while in EU the "base" seems to be Beginner).
Armor for the higher skill levels (Exp, Vet, Gen, Sup) is simply double the Beginner level.
The stats that do seem to change across skill level are TU, Stamina, Reactions, FA, Strength and Psi Str. For aliens with Psi abilities, their Psi Skill also increases. (This coincides with the OSG from TFTD). Oh, yeah. CCBA also increases (Close Combat Base Accuracy) Hope this helps. I'm just dumping stuff here to hit the most asked questions. --Zombie 17:03, 11 Nov 2005 (PST)
Numbers aside
While a stat readout for aliens can be very useful to advanced commanders, I think the thing that would be most useful to newcomers would be a general overview of the alien species and each one's relative place in things. A relative threat analysis would be useful to new commanders. Something like: "These are floaters. They're cake. The sectoids are easy on small UFO's, but get mean quick on larger missions."
I did a VERY rough job on this in my old faq annotation: Alien Threat Analysis
That sounds like a great idea, Papa Legba. It's just as important as a listing of numbers - because it's just as important to help newbies, as it is to have advanced stuff. In fact, I suggest putting your info on the page before the listing of numbers... introductory stuff before advanced stuff. Why not copy it on over and get the page started? Otherwise we're waiting for Zombie to finalize his alien stats, which should be soon. Then we'll add that. -MikeTheRed
Future Work
Things seem to be falling together, especially with Danial's findings. However, Danial did a quick and dirty analysis (personal comm.), and of course everything can be worked into a user friendly way, given time. Both Danial and I have only been able to comment on Geo and OSG - we await Z's findings dearly. As stated above, there are discrepancies between Geo and OSG, and while we assume Geo is correct, is it really? Only troops on the ground, fighting it out street to street, can say for sure. This is a common hazard for the military; the real world versus training docs, in 1000 AD, 2000 AD, or 3000 AD. ---MikeTheRed 20:28, 11 Nov 2005 (PST)
P.S. Re: Tanks
Ok, I've cleaned this out... there was nothing much to see here, except the fact that XcomUtil messed with my tank stats, laugh. Thanks to Hobbes, EsTeR, and Danial for setting me straight -MikeTheRed