Talk:Base Layout Strategy
Ethereal (or anyone) - See my new Floor Plan section. Feel free to standardize wording.
Traditionally I have not fought base battles, preferring to down the Retaliatory battleship first. However, I may give it a go just for the fun of a change.
What do you think of the concept of a Small Radar next to the Access Lift, with either a General Stores "past" it, or a Large Radar? The Small Radar keeps aliens "in the open"; the Stores can then be used as you suggest, and/or wouldn't a Large Radar be better than a Hyperwave, because more soldiers can fit in the ground-level room of it (plus come in its "back door" with impunity)?
Of course, the Hyperwave and the Stores are much more viable for actual base usage.
Some thoughts ---MikeTheRed 17:11, 14 June 2006 (PDT)
Build time is one of the biggest factors in base construction. When I build a new base, I want a Hyper-Wave Decoder there as quickly as possible. (If it's before I've unlocked that tech, I guess a Small Radar is a good start -- although I usually manage to get Hyper-Wave before I have funds I want to allocate for a second base.)
Because of this, I'll build a Hangar below the Access Lift and a Hyper-Wave above it. If I'm patient, I'll put a General Stores (10 days build time) above it first, then the Hyper-Wave, to give the "scout post" a little separation from the Lift. I suppose a Small radar in place of the General Stores would work well too -- if not better -- although it's more expensive and not useful like the Stores would be.
The one drawback with the "perfect" design is that you have to wait until each module is built before you can attach the next one, since it's all crammed against one wall. But Hangar+Stores then Hyperwave then Living Quarters gets you a functional base pretty fast.
--Ethereal Cereal 19:10, 14 June 2006 (PDT)
True, build time can be a real problem. I've been playing with "bridges" with something cheap (like a Storeroom) from the Access Lift (or wherever) to link to other areas, so the base can expand faster. (Storerooms are both cheap and fast.) Then later I will take out or replace the bridge, depending on where/what it was. If you're really challenging yourself with tough conditions though, you may not have the extra cash, esp. early on.
I had not seen that "extra arm" design - good thinking!
I would think that with a Small Radar above the Lift (instead of Hyperwave in your design), one (not two) extra blank spaces (next to the Small Radar) would be enough. Unless tons of aliens come through at once, too many to stop in one turn... I have yet to do a base defense in my current Superhuman game. How likely is it that many enemies will try to come through in one turn? The cyberdisc could be a real problem, too.
I see now why you once said you were playing with smoke. Having smoke right outside your scout door seems like it might work really well, or to its side, blocking visualization of your shooters around the sides of the scout room. In fact, one might not want a Large Radar (back to my early thought) then, because a smaller scout room would give your shooters on the side more room to aim.
I notice you put your hangars on the south side of the base. Does it matter if one has them across the north side instead? (With Access Lift to far left.)
---MikeTheRed 22:34, 14 June 2006 (PDT)
Friends, check my user talk page and head down to the Total Randomness section. Right at the bottom. Easy to find.
I was fiddling with wiki templates and trying to see how parameterized wiki templates worked - and probably failing in the process. Anyway, our wiki's settings for the parameters seem somewhat limited, but there's enough functionality to put together a parameterized grid of sorts.
Would it be an idea to reuse what I've done here but to use X-Com base module images instead? With such a contraption, you can design any 6 by 6 module base to your hearts content and not have to take screenshots every time you want to discuss a possible base layout.
- NKF
I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty, but I've swapped your images with the game sprites, and I reckon the result looks pretty good (I've got your thumbnails backed up should you want them replaced). :)
No, actually, that's pretty good. We'll stick to them. Good job Bomb Bloke.
I'll have to rename or make a copy of the template and slap together some documentation for it. Can anyone suggest a good easy-to-remember name I can call it? Base Kit? Base Maker? Base Mapper?
I'll hang on to the previous images for a little later. I have the originals, so that's fine. They were originally there just to show a top-down floorpan of the base (lower level), so you could design it and then see where all the doors are and how you can move through the base.
Anyway, post-it note... now bed.
- NKF
Mike: I don't know if it matters if the hangars are north or south -- the base disjoint bug might come into play with small modules put on the southern border, but I don't know, I've never even encountered it.
Bomb Bloke & NKF: Wow, with Bloke's graphics, your base template does look quite good.
--Ethereal Cereal 10:29, 15 June 2006 (PDT)
Ditto that, now the "test kit" is more a full fledged "base design kit"! I may use it to plan my own. Thanks, NKF and BB! ---MikeTheRed 15:42, 15 June 2006 (PDT)
Going with NKF's original name of "UFO Base Kit" (or UBK for short), I've made a seperate page for it. It's linked on the main page.
I've also incorporated it in place of these images on the BLS page:
Note that these images have their own Tool Text. The UBK doesn't support that.
Images removed in preparation of deletion. --Zombie 23:39, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
Non destructible
Should there be a note somewhere at the top that if you do build the access lift chokepoint style base then to ensure the adjacent base facility isn't destructible? I am not sure of the exact list of what modules are and arent, so won't comment directly unless I come across the list at some point and remember this. --Sfnhltb 12:58, 5 March 2007 (PST)
main page needs a lot of work
Base design for the starter base vs bases afterwards are different enough I think they need separate pages. Additionally a lot of content should be re-written:
- split into 2 pages, one for the starter base and one for bases afterwards
- Discussion comments shouldn't be on the main page (even though I added to them.)
- Needs better integration with Base Management
- All the base bugs influence base construction but are not mentioned
- Build time so far has been ignored. Important because a base needs to be useful before it is finished --Brunpal 23:19, 28 November 2007 (PST)
Consider this build I've named "Hit the Ground Running":
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Base Day 0
- All under construction
Base Day 10
- sm radar -2 days left
- hanger -2 days left
- quarters started -16 days left
- HWD started -26 days left
- workshop started -32 days left
Complete:
- Storage
- Transfer from primary base's surplus stores here
Base Day 12
- hanger -8 days left
- quarters -14 days left
- HWD -24 days left
- 2nd hanger started -20 days left
- workshop -30 days left
Complete:
- Storage
- sm radar
Base Day 20
- quarters -6 days left
- HWD -16 days left
- 2nd hanger -12 days left
- workshop -22 days left
Complete:
- Storage
- sm radar
- hanger #1
- transfer/purchase intercept craft
Base Day 26
- HWD -10 days left
- 2nd hanger -6 days left
- workshop -16 days left
Complete:
- Storage
- sm radar
- hanger #1
- quarters
- 3 empty spaces for whatever you want next to the quarters
Base Day 36
- workshop -6 days left
Complete:
- Storage
- sm radar
- hanger #1
- hanger #2 (finished 4 days ago)
- quarters
- HWD
- small radar is obsolete and destroyed to make chokepoint. Now paying for dirt
Or better still, take advantage of the phantom radar. When you start to build the HWD, decomission the small radar then build the HWD on top of it. But that's making use of an unintended exploit so isn't really kosher.
I suppose you could build the secondary hangar over it like so:
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This unfortunately means that you'll have to move the workshop to the other side, and since it is forced to wait for the quarters to be built, it'll start up a lot later.
In the end I guess the speed at which your base gets built will depend on how you want to juggle your priorities. I see a few common priorities that need consideration when constructing a secondary base. These are:
- Radar coverage
- Base Garrison
- A hangar - absolute minimum
- Bells and Whistles - Basically all the optional upgrades like the HWD (if replacing), Mind shield, labs, workshops, extra hangars, etc.
The first three are generally the most important for any simple base setup with intercept/ground assault capabilities.
The bells and whistles are all desireable but don't need to be obtained right away if you already have similar operations elsewhere (say your main base).
One unusual alternative I'd like to propose is to completely ignore the one-chokepoint base construction and turn it into a plaza. Have all your facilities built around the first hangar, so your troops can enter it from all directions.
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The original radar is replaced by the second quadrant of the lower left hangar. Basically you start off with a radar and a hangar, then once the hangar is built, the stores and quarters and workshop all start off at the same time. The HWD is built off the side, and once it's done, the original radar is plucked out and the second hangar goes in.
Note, I did not intentionally isolate the various modules to all corners of the hangar. They just ended up that way - some connected side modules might be useful too.
To be honest, while I've used this setup to great effect in the past, this is a bit riskier and the setup would actually work a lot better with a single hangar base - which would in effect mimic the game's original main base setup, but with the positions swapped!
Also, since there are no stores to begin with, the interceptor that arrives at this base would have to be armed with plasma beams or laser cannons.
Still, speed building a base for functionality seems like an interesting exercise.
- NKF 23:30, 29 November 2007 (PST)
- In your base above "hit the ground running", wouldn't it be better to start the hanger in the middle of the bottom two rows? That way you can build two hangers afterwards on either side of the first once its built. I do this for the main reason of providing spawn spots for aliens (inside the three hangers) and because I use lightning, firestorm, interceptor at each base. Xcom2 I don't use barracuda because of "too Deep" messages. ie:
NO:
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YES:
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Secondary base + Base disjoint bug
I can't check it right now, but wouldn't design below be useful?
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There's additional facility in the 4th row. I suppose that due to base disjoint bug, it would be disconnected from other modules. If itsn't stores, or quarters, no units should spawn there. The benfits are one extra facility, and base gets protection from destroying facilities in access lift choke point.
Did anyone try this? Would it work?
Mchl 04:28, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
- I've not tried it myself, but there are a few issues I see.
- 1, the choke point set up through the Access Lift is negated, allowing aliens to attack from both ends.
- 2, the Psi Lab actually has TEN spawn points, 7 on the lower level and 3 above. , as detailed here. It's true that they are human priority spawns, and with that many hangars the aliens won't need human spawn points, but you risk no guys spawning in that area, allowing the aliens to come in from both ends and tear your troops apart.
- 3, Certain Facilities are hardened against and cannot be destroyed during a Base Defense mission, no matter how much you smash them up. These facilities are the Hangar, the Access Lift, the General Stores, and the Living Quarters. If they entire line of the choke point hallway is made of such buildings, the risk of the base being destroyed is negated as well. Here is what my bases often look like.
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- Everything after the Living Quarters in the top row and second column will change depending on base needs and function. (General Stores are used to form the path up because they build fast and offer some defense and hiding places during attack in better fashion than Living Quarters. And you need them anyways.) The hyperwave decoder being to the right of the Access Lift allows early radar without having to have it be in the choke point and since the choke is so long anyways the effect is minimal. (It also should be noted that many bases, especially ones with nearby support, those housing Avengers, or those not serving as a soldier dispatch, can get away with only having two hangars.) Hope this helps! Arrow Quivershaft 08:18, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
I put a PSI-lab there just because it was in the line above in the template I copied from the article. (This also why there's HWD next to lift instead of any reinforced facility. It's just copied from main article.
My point is: will the facility I added be the subject to the base disjoint bug or not? I must get some way to play X-COM under Ubuntu to check it... :P Mchl 09:36, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
- Ahh...sorry, didn't understand what you were asking. Your answer is that yes, the Psi lab should indeed benefit from the Base Disjoint Bug under normal circumstances. However, many of the popular enhancers for X-COM(including XcomUtil) work around the Base Disjoint Bug and then it no longer would work. Arrow Quivershaft 09:40, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
- Thanks. I'll give it a life fire testing next time I lay my hands on X-COM. Never used XcomUtil... If anything, I hack the game myself ;) Mchl 09:50, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
If you go with the original idea, one good connecting facility would be the small radar. Few if any units will ever spawn in that section. I like two access points into the hangar area myself for pincer attacks, but it does look like a creative way to use the bug.
With all the code digging that's been going on lately, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the off-by-one loop and inner loop error that's causing the base disjoint bug will be tracked down and rectified for good. - NKF 14:04, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
- As a quick note on Mchl's strategy of using that extra bit of space...keep in mind that any units that spawn in that one extra module will be completely isolated, with no way to escape for the battle. Unless someone inside has a Blaster Launcher and Bombs, or a few Heavy Plasma clips, or someone outside can come to provide such evacuation. Arrow Quivershaft 14:20, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
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The solution to those isolated modules is (as we all should know) placing a module next to it. So in the example on the right, placing a facility like the Living Quarters next to the General Stores will allow soldiers to get to the other part of the base. Could also put a low-spawn module in place of the LQ's (like one of the radars) which would create a secondary choke point of sorts.
I'd just like to mention that even though the hangars are at the bottom, the base disjoint bug is still present as the lower pass-through is blocked off. In some cases this is a good thing as it restricts movement through a single connection and allows you to clear each hangar one at a time. --Zombie 21:40, 5 November 2008 (CST)
- Thinking of it, I never got any feedback for the fix I made. Does it fail for some base layouts? Seb76 14:21, 6 November 2008 (CST)
By the way Mchl, if you install the Steam versions of XCOM, which run under dosbox, they will run just as easily under Ubuntu dosbox. If fact you can run them under Ubuntu dosbox pointing to the directory on the /host filesystem where Steam installed them. Same goes for TFTD and Apocalypse - they all run under Ubuntu. Spike 13:42, 9 November 2008 (CST)
I've been experimenting a bit with some build ideas and I think once you know about it the base disjoint bug really is more of a feature. If you use it wisely you can actually use more facilities without really hindering your defensibility. I also totally agree with the sentiment about forcing the hangers to only connect to each other with 1 door is a much better tactical situation.
Some potential builds: Note: I have not laid out literally all the facilities. Where you place the HWD ect is optional. As such other than dirt, the lift, and hangers the facilities are more symbolic. General Stores simply mean you can build a facility there. Living Quarters are to show fire corridors you can utilize. The Fusion Ball Defenses just show facilities choked off on two sides by the base disjoint "feature". These facilities do not connect to the hangers. Aliens might retreat into them if you aren't watching the hanger exits, but it shouldn't really pose a large problem, plus you could use them to catch aliens in crossfire as they exit the hangers. Plasma Defenses note sniper positions with long sightlines. You would actually want to use a corridor facility here, but only the Living Quarters shows the corridor so I used them for their cross shape. Numbers in parentheses are with optional corridor facility at Laser Defenses positions which open up another choke into enemy territory for pincer attacks.
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Note: All of the "a" versions are essentially Time-Efficient Corridor Builds. While all of the "b" versions would certainly take much longer to build. I did not include a #1b simply because moving the lift to a b-like position doesn't give you any benefit unless you're willing to place a facility in the lift's old position and leave any poor soldiers that spawn there surrounded. For the "a" variants significant time to build savings can be achieved by building a temporary general stores adjacent to the lift on the west side, though you'll be stuck paying for dirt unless you use a bug fix or workaround... still it's probably worth the cost.
Sniper positions are merely suggestions. I tried to place most of them far enough that they could sit in the corridor with impunity and never get mutually surprised by an alien exiting. They're intended to be used with spotters. Some of the sniper positions are only 1 facility away from enemy territory. These are really there for the second phase to support the spotters as they begin to enter the hangers. The immediate area should be clear first. Still, though... they cannot be flanked from the sides or behind (as long as you control the marked corridors) due to the base disjoint bug.
Inline Triple Hangers are less efficient by 1 unused facility in the double choke point versions, but are just as efficient when only 1 choke point is used and may prove tactically easier to clear.
All builds can of course be mirrored along a diagonal line from the NW corner to the SE corner if you prefer your hangers setup vertically. All hanger entrances are wide open for sniping, no facilities connect on the NE corner where you have to come through a door, though variants that do are possible.
Long sightlines are great for sniping, but could also be bad if your soldiers can't resist MC as they will see each other and let the enemy leapfrog MC your units, so beware. (If everyone is wearing flying suits you can usually equip psi weaklings with laser pistols. They will still be able to kill aliens, but do almost no damage to friendly units.)
PS... Sorry this is so long. >,> Mannon 14:33, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
Discussion transplanted from article page
- tequilachef: Remember that the Aliens need enough spawn points when attacking your base. If they do not have enough they will use X-Com spawn points, which makes the carefully planned choke point practically useless since you will be ambushed from inside your own living quarters and general stores. Three hangars and the access lift are enough to cover every possible attacking alien force. Therefore I think the two beforementioned base layouts are practically useless!
- I belive that one hangar and one access lift can provide more than enough spawn points for an invasion fleet. I do it all the time and there aren't any spillovers. I couldn't find any reference anywhere on the wiki, but a section that discusses the nuances of the spawn nodes would be interesting, and perhaps even note the spawn nodes in the individual base map blocks. - NKF
- For a fairly detailed monologue about alien spawn points per module and how alien spawning is determined, please see Base_Defence_Mission_Spawning_Issues. According to this, you have 23 alien spawn tiles with one Hangar and the Access Lift. According to the deployment chart for Alien Retaliation missions, the only time you'll have more than 23 aliens dispatched to try and smoke you out is in Superhuman, and even then, the most you can go over is 5, making 2 Hangars and the Access Lift sufficient to fully spawn any Alien Retaliation. My greater concern would be the location of the HWD; that's a module that can be destroyed during a heated Alien Retaliation Mission, and if you lose it, the whole base is demolished. Also, because of it's central staircase, it will prevent you from firing any weapon but Blaster Bombs down the hallway behind the choke point. It would be wiser to have Living Quarters or General Stores along that entire choke line, since such a module cannot be demolished, it also serves as a high-priority spawn point for your troopers, and the open central area allows you to nuke the aliens from far away. Finally, those two bases seem like they would have 50 or 100 soldiers each(based on the number of Psi Labs), at which point a full complement of 28 aliens is outnumbered nearly 4-to-1 and can be defeated through attrition alone if needed. Even assuming a squad of 100 psissies and 22 Ethereals(the six Sectopods can't use psi), you've still got 56 soldiers to kill things with, since each Ethereal can MC only twice per turn. -Arrow Quivershaft
- Interesting point, Arrow. Superhuman Battleships have 22-28 crew, with the variability coming from 0-2 extra terrorists and 0-4 extra soldiers. FWIW, this is like rolling a 3-sided die (0-2) and 5 sided one (0-5), with a 20% chance there will be 22-23 aliens (1/15 + 2/15), or 27-28 (same odds), for that matter. The average is 25, or 2 aliens outside the Lift and Hangar, if you only have one Hangar. -MikeTheRed 18:09, 30 July 2008 (PDT)
- I should note a small error in that. Due to program constraints, you can never have more than 40 soldiers spawn(and tanks count as 4 soldiers). Still, how someone could lose a fight in a defense-oriented base when commanding 40 soldiers with Laser Rifles is beyond me. Arrow Quivershaft 19:24, 30 July 2008 (PDT)
- The above two base designs are still useless. While it has a long choke point it is not practical. You can only build next to finished structures. Therefore it will take 55 days before the first soldier can start defending it. (Days: HWD-26, stores-10, LQ-16, 3 for soldier delivery) Placing the Access Lift next to a wall while keeping it a choke point means that there are only 2 spaces to place structure. Removing structure means later you will be paying for dirt. Furthermore I'm not convinced that an extended choke past the lift +1 tile is useful. Too many guys end up spending a long time hoofing it to a spot they can be useful.--Brunpal 19:19, 28 November 2007 (PST)
- That's true in theory, Brunpal, but you can build temporary facilities like Stores to "bridge a gap", then remove them. Yes, you'll wind up paying for dirt, but that will only matter in a self-imposed cash-crunch scenario. -MikeTheRed 15:31, 7 December 2007 (PST)
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The following base is built on the theory that the best way to defeat the aliens is to turn the alien spawn-points into a salient. The nature of this defense allows for surrounding the initial enemy spawn point on 3 sides, allowing for crossfire to cut the aliens down to size.
Time-Efficient Corridor Build
If anyone has any feedback or comments on it, I am eager to hear it.--Talon81 13:53, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
Corner ambush build
The math seems wrong here. Base squares aren't purely 9x9. They are 10x10 with the South row and East column of tiles reserved for the 1 tile wide separation between facilities and the 1 tile long corridor that connects them to adjacent corridors. The numbers would also be off because the soldiers are stacked 2 deep, and because the aliens entering the lowest workshop from the hangar do not enter it from the South but from the West. Assuming a vision range of 1 allows an alien to see a tile adjacent to the one they are standing on then the minimum range when an alien steps around the corner would be: 3 tiles of the southern workshop + 3x10 tiles for 3 full workshops + 9 tiles of the last workshop to the nearest kneeling soldier = 42. The alien would still have to walk 22 tiles strait North before being able to see any of the soldiers, though.
I also don't really see the point of making them walk around a blind corner unless making use of reaction fire to kill them on their own turn. Otherwise a strait corridor into the hanger would prove just as effective as well as allowing the snipers the opportunity to fire into the hanger it-self. The cornering also only adds 3 tiles to the range aliens must walk before seeing your snipers. By contrast the Time-Efficient Corridor Build could position your snipers 52 tiles from the blind corner, though certainly overkill and aliens would have to walk across a workshop before coming around the corner. Mannon 22:27, 23 March 2011 (EDT)
- Not entirely sure about the build myself - not having tried it, but you're right on the math. Forcing the aliens to waste TUs and expose their sides to reaction fire is about the best thing the corner does. It might assist foil blaster bomb usage as well, but I'd put my money on the very twisty missile defense-centric build being a little better for that.
- The corner build would only work in games with the base disjoint bug patched. Otherwise the firing corridor will be sealed all the way down. That's working on the assumption that some players do prefer to leave the bug in. -NKF 01:26, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
- It should be workable if you flipped it horizontally. At least, the corridor would be open that way. You would still have the issue of having the access lift locked, though you could use that to your advantage by taking on the first hanger, then blasting your way into the other sections. If you don't care for blasting then you're going to have to lose the facility on the corner of the hangers so you can move the access lift up or place a facility just north of it between the hangers, though any poor sods that spawn there will be surrounded. But even though you lose a facility you can gain it back by using the base disjoint "feature" to your advantage. Specifically the long corridor can be extended all the way to the bottom. The last facility will just extend your sniper corridor, but won't connect to the hanger. Aliens might walk down there, and hang out, but it shouldn't really be a problem for you, especially if you don't use a facility that blocks visibility through the middle. You could do the same along the right side to get another facility as well, but you'd either trap spawning units or would have to put another facility next to it and have two routes into and out of enemy territory, though some prefer it that way.Mannon 12:34, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
TFTD version proposal
Having played a base defense mission in TFTD a few weeks back, I've come to the conclusion that the base strategies discussed here aren't going to all be universally applicable to TFTD due to a variety of factors.
Mainly different layouts, blast doors, aliens starting points not being restricted just to the sub-pens and airlock, and most importantly the weaker structural walls in the base. The single-chokepoint base does work to an extent but isn't quite as effective as it was in UFO.
It might be worth creating a TFTD version of this page to explore ideas for its own layout designs. -NKF 01:45, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
- Seconded. I would like to hear more about the issues that are different, as well. Spike 03:48, 24 March 2011 (EDT)