Talk:Dual-wield

Thanks to NKF for clarifying the accuracy penalty. Captain Foo 23:19, 28 August 2008 (PDT)

There's a statement in the article saying that the offhand weapon is slower. I have done some tests and I don't think it's true that the off hand weapon fires at a reduced rate. From about 20 data points I would say that the offhand weapon fires at exactly the same rate, but sometimes starts firing slightly later. This is easy to check from the Message History, which gives the time (to the nearest second) when each weapon runs out of ammo (if you don't carry spare ammo). I tested 3 weapons (Autocannon, Sniper Rifle, Lawpistol) at 2 different Speed/TU levels (48 and 56), both one handed and dual wield. This test also confirmed that the actual Real Time rate of fire is the UFOPaedia listed RoF for Snap fire, twice that rate for Auto, half that rate for Aimed. There didn't seem to be a difference for TUs but admittedly these TU values were pretty close. I would like to specifically test at the breakpoints for Turn Based, and confirm there is no impact on RT, as Zaimoni said.

In terms of dual wield RoF, I would conclude that the volume of fire when using Dual Wield is very close to double. What would be interesting to know is the exact effect on accuracy, both for the primary and secondary weapon, and of course overall. I would be very surprised if the accuracy penalty was x50%, and if it's any less that would confirm that dual wield gives you more firepower. Spike 18:01, 19 October 2008 (CDT)

Can you also throw in the toxigun into your tests? It's faster than the Lawpistol and M4000, so should give some interesting results. I'm actually reminded of another game series I've been playing lately (Armored Core) where the off-hand weapons are always delayed for about a second before actually firing, but otherwise fire at the weapon's designated fire rate. If this is the case, then the statement should be modified to reflect these findings. In a way it is slower, but once it picks up it'll double the firepower.

OK I tried the Toxiguns and they do have the effect described - in Auto mode the primary weapon exhausts ammo much faster than the offhand weapon. In Aimed and Snap modes the behaviour is as observed for the other weapons, i.e. both weapons deplete at the same rate, with the offhand weapon lagging slightly (by one round). I think this is the normal behaviour, and the Toxigun Auto behaviour is some kind of anomaly due to its high rate of fire. The same thing happens with M4000s on Auto. Maybe the TUs per shot round down to zero? (The test Agents had low, starting stats - Accuracy in 30s and TUs/Speed in the 40s.) Spike 16:24, 23 October 2008 (CDT)

I'm guessing the dual wield penalty would be somewhat similar to penalty in its previous games. -20%. However the accuracy bars in Apocalypse are hard to read as they appear to be modulated a little to adhere to a certain maximum accuracy level (weapon based?). Notice how a maxed stat soldier will have identical accuracy levels across the board no matter the firing mode. Try it with a 96/98 accuracy agent and a Devestator or Toxigun. My guess is that the actual accuracy level would have been much greater, but to balance the game it's cut off at a certain point. But again that's just me guessing, as I have absolutely no idea how Apocalypse adjusts its firing modes. -NKF 23:44, 19 October 2008 (CDT)

The penalty is +40% inaccuracy. The catch is that, like most modifiers in Apoc, it only applies to the term that comes from your agent's accuracy (or rather, their inaccuracy), so that the penalty for dual-wielding is negligible at high Accuracy stats.

In general, given that going from Aimed to Snap (or from Snap to Auto) gives x2 fire rate and x2 inaccuracy (again, applying only to the agent accuracy term), dual-wielding in Aimed mode is strictly superior in combat (via equal RoF and superior accuracy) to single-wielding in Snap mode and dual-wielding in Snap mode strictly superior to single-wielding in Auto mode (even for weapons that take a dual-wielding penalty). Of course, to do that you need to buy more guns (not more ammo - you're using it at the same rate - but literally more weapons), and once Personal Cloaking Fields are available, the point is usually moot (as the option of "dual-wielding" with a cloak is typically an excellent one). Magic9mushroom (talk) 03:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)