Talk:ExploitsA

THIS IS OLD DISCUSSION PAGE

Extra Ammo Exploit

Does anybody mind if I delete the "Extra Ammo" exploit? What is described there, is actually avoidance of a glitch, not an Exploit. And it's already described under Known_Bugs#Disappearing_Ammo. I'm about to flesh out the Glitch, and it's annoying to have to repeat in two places when the second's not really an Exploit. I'll do it in a week if nobody objects. If somebody objects, it stays. ---MikeTheRed 13:35, 11 December 2005 (PST)

Actually I just realized that the Extra Ammo Exploit differs from the Glitch description. It says that even clips that are partially full, become full if unloaded. I vaguely recall I tested this in the DOS version, and that my experience reflected what's described in the Glitch entry. NKF and others, do you know for sure which one is right? - MikeTheRed 17:33, 11 January 2007 (PST)

Hobbes, are you sure about that note on ammo? Nobody's directly addressed my question (above) about how this page's description differs from the Glitch page's description. I'm pretty sure the DOS version retains full clips that are loaded, like Glitch says. - MikeTheRed 07:06, 9 February 2007 (PST)

In UFO Gold, partially-used clips are lost. Unused clips are retained. This is regardless of alien/xcom technology, loaded/unloaded status. This has been verified. In at least one version of the game (I think the earlier DOS versions of xcom, as well as the DOS version of ufo, loaded clips are lost and unloaded clips are retained, regardless of used/partially-used or alien/xcom status. The exact mechanics have not been verified, but the general phenomenon has. Furthermore, clip loss is determined for each clip independently. I have never seen a version where it was all-or-nothing. This only covers one or more dos versions of xcom, the dos version of ufo, and ufo gold. - Boba 9 February 2007

Thanks Boba, I believe the wiki crew has generally been calling the Gold version, the CE (Collector's Edition) version (someone correct me if wrong). And as shown under Known Bugs (link above), I could swear someone (NKF? Zombie?) insisted that loaded, full clips in alien guns were lost in CE... IOW, you should unload full clips before ending combat. But only for CE (i.e., Gold). (Partial clips are always lost, regardless of any state.) I hope whomever said that will step up (NKF?). I agree that loaded, full clips are not lost in DOS 1.4; that's what I've mostly played with. BTW you can autmatically sign your posts by using three tildes (~~~), or four for signature and timestamp. - MikeTheRed 14:05, 9 February 2007 (PST)

Mike, we (meaning, you and I) worked on this one Sunday a long time ago. The tests I ran did indeed show that full unloaded alien clips were lost (CE, Gold, whatever). However, I just ran some quite extensive tests on this right now and it showed no difference between loaded/unloaded status with a full clip. Might have been a bug, or I might have been only looking at the end-of-mission report.

The end-of-mission report doesn't take into account clip usage - it counts what was there in the beginning, subtracts anything which was destroyed during the mission and supplies that as the number of artifacts recovered. Each pod of Elerium-115 is also considered an "artifact" (as long as it wasn't researched), so that could have compounded the problem if a comperhensive list was not created. It's possible I was only looking at the EOM report and neglected to visit the stores, but by golly, I could have sworn I did. I'll run some more tests this weekend sometime, but as it stands right now all full clips are recovered no matter what. --Zombie 15:36, 9 February 2007 (PST)

That sounds great, Zombie. And Boba, I apologize if I've got it wrong. Maybe what we're seeing is that the EOM report is wrong (or confusing?), and that caused both the Extra Ammo and Disappearing Ammo blurbs on the wiki. If I'm understanding this right. If so, we'd want to correct both of these so as to say "some folks think that {blah blah), but actually this is only due (blah blah)", or whatever. I do remember that I myself checked the stores back at base when I reviewed it for DOS 1.4. - MikeTheRed 17:18, 9 February 2007 (PST)

So what's the status of this exploit? It sounds to me like full clip, loaded or unloaded = recovered -- partial clip, loaded or unloaded = lost -- is the most up-to-date picture of it. (And consistent across all versions.) Is this definitely correct, definitely incorrect, or somewhere in between?--Ethereal Cereal 19:20, 2 March 2007 (PST)

I wonder if it was just confusion because you could easily see a loaded weapon counting as one artifact for the EOM, but if you take the ammo out it reports both seperately so it looks like you get more back (and you would get slightly more points?), but that the ammo might get separated back at base even if you leave it in. Clearly partial clips always go, alien or human, as thats the way you get through so much of every type of ammo short of explosives/rockets. --Sfnhltb 19:48, 2 March 2007 (PST)

Just my 2 cents, I could have sworn that after reading this and always unloading clips (even from dead aliens) that I started getting too many Heavy Plasma clips... Perhaps we need to just test this out once and for all. Count how many clips you have, go to a site, shoot one off, dust off, check stores. Test 2 reload and do the samething only unload a partial and a full and see what happens.

Ah, heck I have both versions I'll do it myself here. Be back with the results and hopefully wrap this up. --Pi Masta 11:10, 3 March 2007 (PST)

Ok, per my tests using DOS (ver 1.4 I believe, how do you check??) and Windows CE (even using the same save games between the two). I tested these with a Heavy Cannon, and an Auto Cannon (and a rocket launcher but never fired it, and never lost any rockets), unless alien weapons work differently they should do the same. I have concluded the following:

• Full ammo clips (loaded and unloaded) are always kept
• Partial ammo clips loaded in a weapon are never kept
• Partial ammo clips unloaded are kept ONLY in the DOS version

I verified these by looking at the stores in the base afterwards, not the EOM report (which just told me 2 aliens killed from the crashed landing). The only extra thing I can see testing is if two half clips are counted as one, that is if there are 3 round left in two HC-HE, do I lose both of them, or just one? My gut tells me they went the easy way and just discarded any partial clips.

I didn't update any pages with this info yet. If no one says anything in a day or so I'll make the updates. It'd be nice for someone to confirm on this. --Pi Masta 11:47, 3 March 2007 (PST)

Thanks for doing the testing. Since I play CE exclusively, this makes my life easier: no more of this unload-if-you-think-almost-all-the-aliens-are-dead silliness. Gee, life is so complicated.--Ethereal Cereal 11:58, 3 March 2007 (PST)

Awwww, dammit. Life is complicated. Which is to say X-COM. Ahem.

I did a base raid to grab a blaster launcher so I could research it, but only got back to base with the launcher and not the bomb that was loaded in it. So I had to be the latest sucker to run this test:

• Artefact weapon, partial clip, loaded or unloaded: no clip gained
• Artefact weapon, full clip, loaded: no clip gained
• Artefact weapon, full clip, unloaded: clip gained
• Alien weapon (researched, non-artefact), full clip, loaded: no clip gained
• Alien weapon, full clip, unloaded: clip gained

These results apply to CE. I assume that in DOS, unloaded partial clips are kept (alien, artefact, X-COM, whatever). Dunno if loaded clips in alien weapons are kept in DOS; they are definitely lost under CE.--Ethereal Cereal 17:15, 9 March 2007 (PST)

(Are we supposed to keep indenting as each comment is made? do we have a rule? anyway,)

I played DOS 1.4 and didn't think to look at the Score screen; I found that full alien clips are kept, back at base.

Eth - if you don't mind me asking - how did you test a partial Blaster clip?

hehe - MikeTheRed 19:33, 9 March 2007 (PST)

Just indent sufficiently to break the discussions up so that we know where a new post begins and If we go too far to the right just roll back a few levels and start again. Kind of like a line flush with a typewriter... if anyone remembers these relics of an ancient civilisation.

Partial blaster bomb clips - two possibilities. It was edited. The other is a dud clip. Technically that's a partial clip. - NKF

I'm waiting for his answer. ;)

Folks (in general)... can we finally kill the "extra ammo collection" section of this Exploit page, and instead simply have the Glitch that full clips are lost in CE if loaded in alien weapons? Or at least the describe this non-exploit as "versus a glitch, things act regularly in DOS...".

It's not an extra ammo exploit, it's regular ammo not lost to a glitch. - MikeTheRed 22:35, 9 March 2007 (PST)

Yeah, regarding the indenting, if you've got a back-and-forth between two users, each should stick to their prior indent level:

Me

You

Me

You

etc. Otherwise the rule is add an indent level when replying to the prior user's comments.

It wasn't a dud clip, it was merely a loaded blaster bomb. At mission end, I got the launcher, but not the bomb. (And only one artefact was scored.) Mind you, I ran these tests by grabbing the weapon, walking to the exit point/skyranger, and aborting the mission. Is it different when you end it by killing all the aliens? I'll have to check that next.

So. Mike, are you saying that in the DOS version, a full clip loaded in an alien weapon is retained? I need to know the answer with 100% certainty before I will edit the article for the last time, dammit. The exact nature of this bug has been up in the air for far too long.--Ethereal Cereal 22:37, 9 March 2007 (PST)

Ok, Eth. So let me make sure I have it straight: Pick up one Blaster Launcher, with 1 BB in it. Check stores before and after. (Plus look at the Score screen.) Yes? I'm not being obtuse here, I just want to make sure I do it right, because it seems like such a simple thing, to have such confusion over. Thanks - and yes, it's been in the air too long - MikeTheRed 22:43, 9 March 2007 (PST)

I think I have an old Battleship game near completion. I'll finish it out, noting carefully all clip counts in all weapons, before and after. I can also send it to you CE users, to see what you get, before and after. Hold on a minute. - MikeTheRed 23:05, 9 March 2007 (PST)

FWIW, in hunting around old files, here is the one where folks run to the southeast, through a solid wall of soldiers. As described here. The very first few will run through solid flanks of soldiers - after that, there are holes in the wall as more panic and often run - is this a DOS 1.4 thing? All soldiers have been set to 0 Morale and will freak when you end the turn. An interesting phenom; see that "as described" Discussion. - MikeTheRed 23:16, 9 March 2007 (PST)

During my own Bravery testing (under CE), I saw the same exact thing: I piled all the soldiers in a corner, and one or two walked through everyone to run away.--Ethereal Cereal 02:59, 10 March 2007 (PST)

Arg, something is screwy with that savegame - look how the weapons have problems being accessed. This is not to say the phenom of running through soldiers isn't real; I saw it back before this, when nothing was screwy. Something's wrong with how I restored the game, or my X-COM since I last played it. So much for a quick test of counts. I'll do it sometime in the next two weeks though; this has gone on too long. For now it's late, and a busy time for me otherwise. A.k.a. demonstrations never work. - MikeTheRed 23:43, 9 March 2007 (PST)

(This is a note to myself to remember which pages get edited after we finally straighten this out: Exploits, Known Bugs, Equipment Recovery, UFO Recovery Values.--Ethereal Cereal 01:29, 10 March 2007 (PST))

I have a big fat aha now: I finally tested all-aliens-killed, mission ends, vs. grab stuff, abort mission. Difference! When I aborted the mission, I had to unload unused clips first in order to get them, but if it was a "successful" mission, the clips were recovered regardless of loaded/unloaded status. (Loaded-but-unused X-COM ammo was not used up during an abort.)

Here's the savegame I used: Media:Weapon unloading test.zip. It's UFO-1, so you don't have to do before/after counts. There's a single sectoid remaining, and the following equipment on the map (9 artefacts total):

• 1 Heavy Plasma (plus 1 loaded clip)
• 1 Plasma Pistol (plus 2 clips, 1 loaded)
• 1 Plasma Rifle (plus 1 partly-used loaded clip and 1 unloaded clip)
• 1 Elerium

So, use the save and try this: grab any weapon (say, the pistol at the door of the UFO), run back to the skyranger with it and abort (don't bother getting everyone else back in the ranger and don't kill the sectoid). Do you get 1 artefact (and back at base, have only the pistol, not the clip, in your stores)?--Ethereal Cereal 02:59, 10 March 2007 (PST)

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NEW DISCUSSION BEGINS HERE

I got a very serious problem with the DOS version 1.0 +XcomUtil. I had issued 6 heavy plasmas and all 30 clips to a ship. After 3 missions, I got the message of lacking equipment for the team. I checked, and I discovered that the clips were missing despite no one fired any shots at all! The same problem is presented with a rocket launcher, as I was unable to reload after the 3 missions despited racking all four into the ship. It seems that somehow the game sees all loaded clips as used and dumps them despite they are full. The only way to prevent it is to unload all clips before/after engagement. -Amitakartok

I've personally encountered this problem a few times myself on the CE/Gold version, to be honest. Back before I ran with XComUtil; haven't seen it since(although the fact that I almost never use single-shot weapons like the Rocket Launcher, Blaster Launcher, or Small Launcher does make it hard to track if this is the reason). To be honest, though, you shouldn't be able to actually run out of Heavy Plasma Clips...they're pretty easy to get, if you're winning missions. ;) Arrow Quivershaft 22:58, 18 January 2008 (PST)