Difference between revisions of "Talk:Laser Rifle"

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(Strategic opportunity cost of Heavy Plasma tactics)
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Speaking of head shots, [http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Skills/sniper UFO:AI] has a head shot feature. :) 
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"Note:The difference for auto shot occurs according to how many TUs the soldier has, and is probably due to the INTeger function. For instance a soldier with 59 TU will use 20 TU for an auto shot, but a soldier with 60 TU will also use 20 TU and will thus be able to shoot 3 times. 64 TU will give 3 shots at 21 TU and 1 TU leftover."
  
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I'm not entirely convinced that the Laser Rifle is the best weapon in the game, though it is a dramatic step up from conventional weapons in the early game. I recall that often it wouldn't be able to kill the enemy in one shot, while the [[Heavy Plasma]] or [[Plasma Rifle]] would. Unlimited ammo is a very nice feature, but by the endgame I was usually swimming in plasma ammo and elerium.   Also, can plasma rounds destroy certain wall sections that lasers cannot?  -[[User:Captain Foo|Captain Foo]] 08:19, 29 August 2008 (PDT)
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Just rolling back this update because this is something true for any weapon where the percentage and TU values result in a fraction that gets clipped off thanks to the use of integers - it's not just exclusive to the laser rifle. The heavy plasma is another notable example where TU values can add an extra round at some TU levels. Due to the limited and specific requirements needed to get these extra shots, they are rare (and rather desirable) anomalies rather than the norm. -[[User:NKF|NKF]] 02:01, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
  
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: Arguably indeed. It's not the best weapon in the game, but neither is the heavy plasma. It's a good all-rounder though that can match the pace of the Heavy Plasma. What the laser rifle offers over the heavy plasma in addition to the unlimited ammo is one extra free slot on the transport (which you can use to include even heavier firepower) and a faster firing mode. It's moderately powerful enough to tackle anything in the game - if perhaps not with one shot (which is where the speed offsets its lower damage - more shots = more damage). The faster speed also allows the laser rifle to be a more effective reaction-shot weapon (only the pistol and laser pistol are better). Because the aliens are swimming in heavy plasmas, you still have the option of grabbing one off the ground if you need that extra firepower to breach inner UFO walls, so you are not denied the abilities of the heavy plasma by arming a laser rifle. I guess you could say that it offers flexibility. - [[User:NKF|NKF]] 14:18, 29 August 2008 (PDT)
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It's not an anomaly... the 2 autoshots is the anomaly. You USUALLY get 3 shots.
  
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Hi again guys. Personally, I do think the laser rifle is the best squad weapon in the game, but mainly for aesthetic reasons. Strictly the heavy plasma gives you the most net firepower, even taking into account the ammo requirements. OK, in a theoretical 'siege' scenario where the aliens were too well dug in and you needed to fire huge numbers of rounds, the laser rifle would come out ahead - but I'm not aware of any such missions. The ammo requirement of the heavy plasma doesn't materially compensate for its increased firepower. In my view this makes it an unbalanced weapon from a game design point of view - similar to Psionics, it is just too 'optimal' to make the game balanced. And that's my somewhat sentimental reason for preferring the laser rifle. Good, clean, effective, does-the-job human technology - none of that alien nonsense!
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'''TU 34% INT 3 auto TU - 3auto'''
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50 17 17 51 -1.00
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51 17.34 17 51 0.00
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52 17.68 17 51 1.00
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53 18.02 18 54 -1.00
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54 18.36 18 54 0.00
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55 18.7 18 54 1.00
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56 19.04 19 57 -1.00
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57 19.38 19 57 0.00
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58 19.72 19 57 1.00
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59 20.06 20 60 -1.00
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60 20.4 20 60 0.00
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61 20.74 20 60 1.00
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62 21.08 21 63 -1.00
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63 21.42 21 63 0.00
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64 21.76 21 63 1.00
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65 22.1 22 66 -1.00
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66 22.44 22 66 0.00
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67 22.78 22 66 1.00
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68 23.12 23 69 -1.00
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69 23.46 23 69 0.00
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70 23.8 23 69 1.00
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71 24.14 24 72 -1.00
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72 24.48 24 72 0.00
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73 24.82 24 72 1.00
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74 25.16 25 75 -1.00
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75 25.5 25 75 0.00
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76 25.84 25 75 1.00
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77 26.18 26 78 -1.00
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78 26.52 26 78 0.00
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79 26.86 26 78 1.00
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80 27.2 27 81 -1.00
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81 27.54 27 81 0.00
  
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Actually let me advance an indirect argument why the laser rifle might actually be the best weapon in objective terms as well. Heavy Plasmas sell for a small fortune, and are a large proportion of the total value of all recovered items. If every recovered Heavy Plasma was sold, instead of being used to equip troops, that is a very significant flow of capital investment that can be used to rapidly build up the strategic power of X-COM - building Hyperwave decoders, bases, aircraft, and recruiting more manpower. In this strategy, captured Heavy Plasmas could still be used tactically during a battle for key objectives such as penetrating UFO interior walls. I haven't tested it, but I have a strong belief that would be a faster route to victory. Thoughts? [[User:Spike|Spike]] 07:44, 30 August 2008 (PDT)
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Haven't tested the Heavy Plasma or whatever yet, but zombie's article is wrong *most of the time* !!!
  
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::The only thing I'll point out is the Heavy Plasmas needed to equip troops is a small fraction of the supply.  After a few missions, you'll be swimming in them, especially if you're doing supply ship raids, which will generally let you haul back about ten.  Earmarking 20-30 Heavy Plasmas for troop use improves combat effectiveness and allows you to more easily collect more. [[User:Arrow Quivershaft|Arrow Quivershaft]] 07:48, 30 August 2008 (PDT)
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[[User:Jasonred|Jasonred]] 05:58, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
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::: Agreed, i wind up with way more heavy plasmas than i could ever possibly need. also, they kill mutons dead.--[[User:(name here)|(name here)]] 08:56, 30 August 2008 (PDT)
 
  
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: Everyone and their grandmother's neighbour's cousin's (twice removed) pet dog has a heavy plasma before long. The game practically forces you to end up with way more supplies than you'll ever need - and money - to win the game. I guess if you're adamant on using the Heavy Plasma as your main weapon, the preference on whether to load a heavy plasma or a laser rifle onto the ship is ''when'' you get to use the heavy plasma. From the very start (sans the extra goodies), or a few turns in (and a handful of extra high explosives/large rockets). There will be some on the field anyway. I like to use a mix of weapons myself, but don't stock heavy plasmas on the troop transport for that very reason. The Art of War states that "One heavy plasma taken from the enemy is worth ten bushels." or something like that... Um, never mind. Both weapons get the job done, so it's a matter of preference.  - [[User:NKF|NKF]] 09:10, 30 August 2008 (PDT)
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OOOH. Just noticed the table has an interesting thing that I missed... 80 TU is the most common figure for a really long running game of Xcom, and at 80 TU, you can only get 2 burtsts... [[User:Jasonred|Jasonred]] 06:25, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
  
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For what it's worth, I usually did bring along a set of laser rifles on later missions as insurance in case my troops run out of ammo.  Their primary weapons were heavy plasma and plasma rifles of course, so the laser rifles usually got left in the dropshop.  I'm not sure the laser rifles got used in late game except for really really long missions, but I suppose the insurance is good. [[User:Captain Foo|Captain Foo]] 10:11, 30 August 2008 (PDT)
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: Continuing on the 'economic/strategy' argument... OK fair enough, it's only the Heavy Plasmas you equip your squads with that matter, since everyone's going to sell off their surplus. A Heavy Plasma 'costs' slightly above $150K more than a Laser Rifle (more if you include ammo costs). So your opportunity cost, anytime you don't have more money than you can use, is >$150K per soldier armed with Heavy Plasma. So for ten soldiers armed with Heavy Plasma, you are forgoing (say) an extra 2 Large Radars, a Hyperwave Decoder, an extra base, 1500 days of continuing (no new hire) research, or 750 days of new-hire research. For the opportunity cost of arming 20 soldiers with Heavy Plasma ($3M), you can build a whole extra base complete with Interceptor and Large Radar. That's going to double your intercept rate (?) and effectively double your progress in the game. Do the tactical advantages of Heavy Plasmas make up for that? I'm not sure. [[User:Spike|Spike]] 10:50, 30 August 2008 (PDT)
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Took me a while to work out what you meant by "zombie's article" - I was looking around for something he'd specifically written! He didn't post the older figures on the page, see - he just happened to be the last person who'd edited the page before you.
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Still, the current page incarnation is a little hard to read. I've taken a stab at re-phrasing it.
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- [[User:Bomb Bloke|Bomb Bloke]] 06:59, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
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There's a potential problem as TUs get higher then 81 (which is possible with older versions of the game). For eg:
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253 86.02 86 258 -5.00
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254 86.36 86 258 -4.00
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255 86.7 86 258 -3.00
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- [[User:Bomb Bloke|Bomb Bloke]] 07:14, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
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Just want to point out that these weapon usage tables are based off a percentage system not on actual TUs. The laser rifle's three auto shot mode breaks the percentage system as it uses 102% (or the HP's auto: 105%) thanks to the fraction concatenation bonuses. This is really a matter that is better fielded in [[Time Units#Time Unit Expenditure |TU expenditure]]. -[[User:NKF|NKF]] 10:54, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 14:54, 15 April 2009

"Note:The difference for auto shot occurs according to how many TUs the soldier has, and is probably due to the INTeger function. For instance a soldier with 59 TU will use 20 TU for an auto shot, but a soldier with 60 TU will also use 20 TU and will thus be able to shoot 3 times. 64 TU will give 3 shots at 21 TU and 1 TU leftover."

Just rolling back this update because this is something true for any weapon where the percentage and TU values result in a fraction that gets clipped off thanks to the use of integers - it's not just exclusive to the laser rifle. The heavy plasma is another notable example where TU values can add an extra round at some TU levels. Due to the limited and specific requirements needed to get these extra shots, they are rare (and rather desirable) anomalies rather than the norm. -NKF 02:01, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

It's not an anomaly... the 2 autoshots is the anomaly. You USUALLY get 3 shots. 

TU	34%	INT	3 auto	TU - 3auto
50	17	17	51	-1.00
51	17.34	17	51	0.00
52	17.68	17	51	1.00
53	18.02	18	54	-1.00
54	18.36	18	54	0.00
55	18.7	18	54	1.00
56	19.04	19	57	-1.00
57	19.38	19	57	0.00
58	19.72	19	57	1.00
59	20.06	20	60	-1.00
60	20.4	20	60	0.00
61	20.74	20	60	1.00
62	21.08	21	63	-1.00
63	21.42	21	63	0.00
64	21.76	21	63	1.00
65	22.1	22	66	-1.00
66	22.44	22	66	0.00
67	22.78	22	66	1.00
68	23.12	23	69	-1.00
69	23.46	23	69	0.00
70	23.8	23	69	1.00
71	24.14	24	72	-1.00
72	24.48	24	72	0.00
73	24.82	24	72	1.00
74	25.16	25	75	-1.00
75	25.5	25	75	0.00
76	25.84	25	75	1.00
77	26.18	26	78	-1.00
78	26.52	26	78	0.00
79	26.86	26	78	1.00
80	27.2	27	81	-1.00
81	27.54	27	81	0.00

Haven't tested the Heavy Plasma or whatever yet, but zombie's article is wrong *most of the time* !!!

Jasonred 05:58, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

OOOH. Just noticed the table has an interesting thing that I missed... 80 TU is the most common figure for a really long running game of Xcom, and at 80 TU, you can only get 2 burtsts... Jasonred 06:25, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Took me a while to work out what you meant by "zombie's article" - I was looking around for something he'd specifically written! He didn't post the older figures on the page, see - he just happened to be the last person who'd edited the page before you.

Still, the current page incarnation is a little hard to read. I've taken a stab at re-phrasing it.

- Bomb Bloke 06:59, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

There's a potential problem as TUs get higher then 81 (which is possible with older versions of the game). For eg: 

253	86.02	86	258	-5.00
254	86.36	86	258	-4.00
255	86.7	86	258	-3.00

- Bomb Bloke 07:14, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Just want to point out that these weapon usage tables are based off a percentage system not on actual TUs. The laser rifle's three auto shot mode breaks the percentage system as it uses 102% (or the HP's auto: 105%) thanks to the fraction concatenation bonuses. This is really a matter that is better fielded in TU expenditure. -NKF 10:54, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

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