Talk:Main Page

Main Page Organization

just a thought. there seems to be a 'lets jump straight in' sorta attitutde with the main page, there is/are no clicky links to info pages for each of these games which would help some new ppl who are looking for info, find that we don't have nOOb info, so they they just wonder off.

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There's no stopping anyone from starting such pages. In fact, there's so much more that can be entered - it's not funny! I'd like to see Starter guides myself - for veterans who've been on a hiatus and for absolute beginners alike.

As it is, the articles are only created and maintained at the fancy and whim of the authors that contribute to them. Or the excuse I like to use - we just haven't gotten round to it yet. Heh.

The front page needs a major overhaul - but before that happens: what's missing? Or rather, what else do we need that's left off?

- NKF

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New issue: I wish there was a more obvious place for the pages "Damage", "Explosions", and a new one I'm about to make, "Experience Training". To me, Damage and Explosions in particular seem a bit too good to be buried down under layers. But they don't really fit anywhere near the top of menus neatly. It's not just Weapons, it's not just Soldiers. Anyone else have ideas? ---MikeTheRed 19:07, 2 Dec 2005 (PST)

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Hmm. I realise the main ufopaedia entries, which was the framework we've been building off, is rather restricted strictly to... well, the ufopaedia entries.

That was fine when we started, but as you've brought to our attention, we've got a whole mess of interesting articles that need somewhere to fit into.

Field Weapon Mechanics? A section devoted to everything about how offense and defence works in the battlescape?

It sounds like coming up with a whole new table of contents (for the main page) would be the solution. Alas, what should it include? How should it be structured? At the moment the main page is, well, a mess. We're squeezing too much in.

Perhaps the main page should be a simple portal that lets you choose between the first two games (combined as they share so much in common), Apocalypse, the three spinoffs (Interceptor, eMail X-Com, Enforcer), the Would-Have-Beens, and a general information page for the really generally stuff, like the links. Basically remove all the specific ufopaedia entries and actually give the individual games (with the exception of the first two, and the would-have-beens) their own personal section, then siphon all the related ar.

Bah, I'm not good at this organisational stuff. I, like the next person, hate breaking the site up into even further subsections, but if it allows for better organisation of the articles, then I'm all for it. Just as long as the information is easy to locate and not 10 clicks deep, eh?.

Let's brainstorm a bit and see what turns up.

- NKF

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Also, a brief explanation for those scouring the recent changes list:

I've been messing with file transclution (I'm using the term they use on Wikimedia) because it allows you to insert entire files into other files, and when you edit the first file, all documents that include that document will automatically be updated. This is useful for applying uniform style changes to entire sets of documents by simply changing a single template file.

(For programming buffs it's like the #include statement used in C/C++ and similar languages)

It's not just for text formatting, but that is just one of its applications. When you think about it, if used well, it can be rather a neat little time saving trick.

This is also an attempt at understanding how Wiki formatting works a bit more so that I can start adding a bit of spit and polish to some of the articles if I ever decide to get round to it.

- NKF

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NKF, I'm not sure the the whole Main Page needs an overhaul. But that too is fine, as long as it works. Like you, I'm not sure just what might be best... but I too wish things were different, somehow. Perhaps in the meantime, I'll put a link for Damage, Explosions and Experience Training under the Main Page topic "Missions".

Also, NKF: Right, this Talk page could be cleaned up. Anybody is welcome to take a whack. I've been busy lately, but might find some time, soon.

Transclusion looks cool... thanks for experimenting; maybe it'll payoff big.

---MikeTheRed 15:02, 8 Dec 2005 (PST)

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Hi all. Just to let you all know that I'm gonna have a crack at sorting out the issues with filetype uploads, spammers, restrictions for unregistered users, and adding new administrators. I'll start tomorrow night, now that I have my broadband back and I've just about settled in to my new place, I should be able to find more time for this stuff :)

Keep up the good work guys, the wiki has expanded far further than I imagined it would :)

I've now upgraded MediaWiki to the latest stable version. This seems to include more features for restricting editing, which I will enable ASAP.

In the mean time, users should now be able to upload files with the following extensions: PNG, JPG, JPEG, GIF, ZIP, DOC, XLS, RAR, DAT and PDF.

---GazChap

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Ah - much better. Thanks, GazChap!!!

Ops, why not we make a page to discuss issues. For example, I am seeing that links to the new document types are not quite working right and wonder if anyone can help. And/or the new page could be a place to propose redesigns, etc. Or maybe we should just do it here?

---MikeTheRed 00:24, 10 December 2005 (PST)

Minor main page update

All these shiny new buttons and functions... oooh.

I've re-organised the main UFO listing ever so slightly, and made the supplement section into a table, just as an effort to find a more logical way of grouping the primary articles together.

I was thinking of creating a section for support units, a section primarily for tanks and terror units so that all misc articles relating to terror units and large units can be moved here. Additionally, a section devoted entirely to built-in turret weapons where all the tank turrets can be grouped, along with turret weapons used by alien units could come in handy.

Pardon my choice of dull, boring, muted greys (grays?) for the table theme colours (here and for the recent update of the tank stats). I chose them because they wouldn't look too out of place with the Wiki's standard greyish backdrop. I'm sure we'll come up with some appropriate theme colours later on.

By the by, one link on the main page has been bothering me. Luckily, not to the point of losing sleep or a nervous breakdown - yet. X-Com Crafts. For some reason the plural "Crafts" just doesn't sound right. Should the the "s" be dropped? Any thoughts?

- NKF

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The Main page is looking good, NKF. I like that little Supplementary table. Our front page could use a little eye candy to make it look more "professional"!

Thanks for taking a whack at re-organizing... it's all so overlapping to me, I find it hard to know where to begin. Anyway, my preference for the Soldiers and Aliens would've been something more like:

• Ground Combat Units (no link)
  • X-COM (no link here either)
    • Soldiers
    • Heavy Weapons Platforms
  • Aliens

Just like that. See, in my mind, Terror units are so closely allied to their master race that it seems a bit artificial to separate them out. Anyway, it's just a thought... as with so many things on this wiki, my attitude is "either way works, so if somebody takes the time to make it the other way, that's cool".

Gray is fine. Maybe somebody can come up with something cooler. But it's better to be careful than garish, hehe. Just as long as it's well positioned is what really matters, and those templates are! And again, they make the pages look more "professional".

I vote for "Craft" without the "s". AFAIK, having an s is recognized English, but it's certainly far less common that not having s, at least in the U.S. (We're talking about the plural, of course.) I figured it was a British thing, shrug.

Any thoughts about a page for wiki administration? Maybe down under Community? We need a place to discuss issues, suggest changes and/or fixes, etc. Where's Danial these days? He always had an eye for organization.

---MikeTheRed 11:13, 10 December 2005 (PST)

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I de-linked "Support Units" in the table of contents into just text. The two components of that section, HWP's and Terror Units, don't share very much in common, and it doesn't seem like there's much meaningful to say about the two sets as a group.

NKF, regarding your question: in my experience reading military websites, the plural of "Craft" is indeed "Craft" when used in the sense of vehicle. If you're talking about alien arts and crafts (i.e., a plasma cosy, or a decorative cavity probe), that's a different story. Need to decide whether we want to rename the pages, though, or just the link text.

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A simple move should suffice. It doesn't contain very much at the moment, and most articles that need to refer to X-Com aircraft link to the actual ships themselves.

I'm still eager to drop the suffix (UFO Defense) from most of the UFO pages, or at the very least shorten it to (UFO). Mainly for the sake of expediency. Hah.

I'll rename the craft page, but leave the suffix as is for now.

- NKF

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FWIW, I just found that saying something like [[Soldiers (UFO Defense)|]] causes the link to be Soldiers (look closely on Edit). Still, there's every reason to take all the (UFO Defense) away from the core articles, and let the rest add their difference. My two cents ---MikeTheRed

Main Page Table Proposal

ABRIDGED by --Papa Legba 00:51, 19 December 2005 (PST) I've cut out the parts of the matter that seem settled. Here are some outstanding issues:

I suppose we'll stick with the monochrome scheme for now. It's adequate. But should we make it site-wide, or split it into three main categories. UFO using the site-wide templates, and TFTD and Apocalypse using slight variants of the scheme?

For example, TFTD and Apocalypse could look like:

Terror from the Deep

The Sink

Rubber Ducky

Apocalypse

Doom

Gloom

Apocalypse's table doesn't look right to me, but TFTD's might just work. But let's concentrate on the site-wide template.

The template will actually consist of three templates, the main one being the overall table style, and the other two for the look of the table heading and the subheading (basically lighter variant of heading). The last two can be implemented by way adding "heading" and "subheading" to the name of the template. - NKF

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The different colors for the three game layouts: It might not be a bad idea, except for two things:

• Having three different-colored tables on the main page might look very angry fruit salad.
• What do we color pages that are shared between two games? (UFO and TFTD share several.)

Moderating the colors some:

Apocalypse

Doom

Gloom

Terror from the Deep

The Sink

Rubber Ducky

--Papa Legba 06:37, 16 December 2005 (PST)

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By the way, we'll keep the table specs templates as well. In the future, we may want to change them a bit. Maybe even give them construction paper or graph paper backgrounds! Gasp, shock. Just a thought. For now, we can use the specs templates as another site-wide template for all spec tables.

So now we've got {{StdTable}}, which contains:

cellpadding = "4" style = "border:1px gray solid; border-collapse: collapse;"

And {{StdTable Heading}}, containing:

style = "font-weight: bolder; color: white; background: #bbb;"

I haven't created a sub-heading template for the moment, as I can't see any place in the main menu to stick one for the moment.

But when it's created, it'll look exactly like heading only the background colour will be set to #EEE.

- NKF

P. S: You can see what templates are used on a page when you enter the edit screen just under the save and preview buttons. This will be templates that were in the page in the previous save. Not in the current edit in progress. I think. Still, handy to know.

P. P. P. S: There we go, all done. It might look a bit odd for now, and the automaticly generated table of contents may be a little messed up now that the UFO section is no longer under a section heading, my thoughts are now turning to further reorganisation of the UFO table. Perhaps we could separate the sections into groups. Mainly for affairs of the Geoscape and Battlescape. Ground troops and ground troop equipment would fit under the Battlescape, and craft, UFO, base management, economics, etc. can fall under Geoscape affairs. Any thoughts on that? Anyone?

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Just ported the TFTD menu over to the new format. I'd say the Xcom menu is decent for now, it seems like what's needed is someone to prune the Apoc menu.

Anyway, it looks great in Firefox. However...

I just loaded the main page up in IE 6, Windows XP. The horizontal lines represented by |- style = "border-top: 1px dotted;" aren't showing up at all. I might look into it later, but it's getting early here. --Papa Legba 00:51, 19 December 2005 (PST)

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Don't worry about them. They're not essential, but are handy when they show up. Actually, if we can get away from using them at all, that'd be great. As for Apocalypse - ah, most of that section can be consensed. I originally put a number of the subsections in a little brainstorming session just to get some ideas out on the table. Then I think someone turned them all into links, then it just snowballed from there. I never intended them to actually become articles, but there you go. Ah, heh.

Speaking of splitting the table into Geoscape and Tactical sections, have a gander at the following:

UFO Defense/Enemy Unknown

General

General Information

Geoscape

Base Facilities Base Defense Measures UFO Detection

X-COM Craft Craft Armaments

Research Alien Research Alien Artefacts

Unidentified Flying Objects UFO Components

Global Issues Missions Scoring Geography

Economics

Battlescape

Ground Combat Units X-Com Soldiers Heavy Weapons Platforms Aliens Overviews of Aliens Terror Units

Equipment Weapons

I think I might be able to get away with taking the dividers out completely. The sub-heading's manual at the moment.

It's not perfect, but while I was bashing this together, a few things started to stick out. There's definite room for a bit more expansion in a number of new areas we've not really covered on.

Like geographic information about countries (really general stuff, like the type of terrain found in the countries, or actually, describing the terrain types, etc). Funding, market information and all that go under economics, I guess. Public relations is covered by scoring. Or maybe undocumented interface commands (like the instant Zoom in the Geoscape or for the Playstation door-opening trick in particular), stuff like that.

- NKF

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Hi Everyone, I'm still here (lurking in the shadows). This site is changing so fast that I can't keep up with it all, so I'm just sitting back waiting for the dust to settle. Once it has, I'm sure I'll get back into the swing of things --Danial 05:02, 19 December 2005 (PST)

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I fixed the dividers for IE, NKF. The trick is that the border styling must be attached to the table cell instead of the table row. In a world where strict W3 HTML conventions were followed, this wouldn't matter. Styling the cells seems to work for both IE and Mozilla, though, so I switched them all over.

So, instead of

 |- style = "border-top: 1px dotted;"  
 | [[Equipment (UFO Defense)|Equipment]]

You do

 |- 
 | style = "border-top: 1px dotted;" | [[Equipment (UFO Defense)|Equipment]]

I like the new layout, but "Economics" looks a little orphaned under "Global Issues." How about we give it some better billing:

UFO Defense/Enemy Unknown

General

General Information

Geoscape

Base Facilities Base Defense Measures UFO Detection

X-COM Craft Craft Armaments

Research Alien Research Alien Artefacts

Economics Manufacturing Profitability

Unidentified Flying Objects UFO Components

Global Issues Missions Scoring Geography

Battlescape

Terrain

Ground Combat Units X-Com Soldiers Heavy Weapons Platforms Aliens Overviews of Aliens Terror Units

Equipment Weapons

In the Geography section, I think there's one issue we should address: terrain sets. Notes on why fighting in deserts or snow is a good/bad thing (no cover for the aliens), tips for managing farmhouses on the farm set, etc. Come to think of it, the terrain set stuff will often come down to tactical advice-- maybe it belongs in the Battlescape section somewhere. --Papa Legba 10:19, 19 December 2005 (PST)

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I think it should be in the Battlescape section.

--Danial 16:08, 19 December 2005 (PST)

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I think you're right. So, we would have two sections: geography (the big picture) and terrain (the ground-level stuff). To save space, I've put it in the version above. Feel free to switch it around if you have a better idea for organization. --Papa Legba 21:21, 19 December 2005 (PST)

Valuable Real Estate

The most viewed part of the wiki-- the top part of the main page-- is pretty cluttered. If there are no objections, I'd like to put the Resources for Authors on the Community Portal page as NKF suggested, or at the very least below the UFOPeadia entries.

Also, I've used the __NOTOC__ tag to suppress the Table Of Contents on the main page. --Papa Legba 21:21, 19 December 2005 (PST)

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Hi folks,

Wow, tons of great work! Unfortunately I just stumbled into Civ4 so I'm giving it some quality time. But I will stick to this site and XCOM, and eventually move to Project Xenocide some day. Great idea to separate Geo and Battle, NKF. Here are my two cents:

UFO Defense/Enemy Unknown

General

General Information

Geoscape

X-COM Base Facilities Base Defense Measures

X-COM Craft

Unidentified Flying Objects

Research

Economics

Battlescape

Overviews

Mission Types

X-Com Soldiers

General Equipment Weapons Heavy Weapons Platforms

Aliens

Terrain (maybe - maybe not)

Scoring

I have taken PL's latest proposal and run with it. Why do I choose this particular layout?

I prime decider is, "how often are folks going to use one particular area as a reference, over others". Anything on the main page should be important, and on a recurrent basis. This is not the place to make a "logical equal breakout". This is the place to make a "most used lookup" table, for two audiences: newbies, and diehards.

For this reason, I collapsed Base Facilities, XCOM Craft, UFOs, and Research into having one entry alone (each)... I feel that there really won't be that many times that folks want to look up only XCOM Craft armaments as opposed to XCOM Craft, or UFO Detection as opposed to Bases, or ... etc., etc. I also still don't see a need to break out Terror Units seperate from other aliens... do we ever face a combat field composed only of Terror Units? I don't see why they're so special. I propose either 2nd level headings of "Overviews" and "Alien Races" (the current Aliens), or just simply have one entry for "Aliens". Again the salient question is, how often are particular people going to be trying to access particular pages.

Some notes while I wordsmith my table:

• There is almost nothing under the short UFO Detection that isn't already under Base Facilities - doesn't warrant Main Page. It could get highlighted in a section of Base Facilities. There is a recent summary section on Detection that clears up the issue - but I don't not see it linked to on UFO Detection. Anyway, really, these short pages are not Main Page stuff IMO. This is not your grandpa's wiki any more.
• Give XCOM Craft Armaments a section on the XCOM Craft page. Not important enough for Main Page entry.
• Economics, more specifically, Manufacturing Profitability, is not important enough to take up two lines on Main. Why? People will consult it once (or a few times), see/print out the most profitable things, then never visit it again. Profitability should be second level, or there should simply an Economics entry with no 2daries. There are other important sources of income, such as country funding and loot.
• UFO Components is not that different from UFOs. It should be a section on UFOs.
• Alien Artefacts is a small page that's already covered under Weapons. Alien Research is likewise very small. Both of these should just be additional sections under the current Research.
• Missions, Scoring, and Geography/Terrain should be under Battle. That's what they really apply to. This changes the Battlescape portion a lot.
• Otherwise, under the Battlescape, I've re-organized stuff. First, Overviews. This is where most everything currently under Missions / General Tips should go. Then Mission Types. Then the real meat - soldiers and their gear. Finally, ancillary stuff like Terrain/Geography and Scoring. I'm not sure what everybody wants for terrain and/or geography, but to me it can only be of tertiary significance past all the other stuff. So it comes next to last. Scoring comes last because it happens last.
• "General Equipment" links to the current "Equipment", but "General Equipment" should be those things that are not weapons. Let's separate things out.
• Unless what you folks have proposed as Geography or Terrain is really crucial, I propose that it just becomes a Section or Link under Battlescape Overviews. It can't really be that important as to warrant Main Page, can it?

Yes, my menu is much shorter than previously. But don't make things long unnecessarily - the first rule of making a good site, is to key in on what's needed most. Just that - albeit for two audiences, newbie and diehard. Anyway, it is not to list out everything categorically and/or everything that has existed before. We're going for a major revamp. Let's majorly revamp!

My opinions are ONLY my own. What happens to this wiki is basically a majority vote. I myself do not have the time to restyle it. Which begs the next question - what happens to this wiki, is also a function of who has the time to do it, laugh. My proposal would take somebody a half a day to rewire. But it works for me, at first glance.

PL, that sounds like a good idea to suppress the TOC, it reduces the visual clutter.

I think it is very important to make it clear even to newbies, that their input is wanted and desired - we all were once somebody who knew nobody, wondering if anybody else shared our intense love for XCOM. I like the current way the Main Page is, with a bolded link at the bottom of the page asking for input. Any way you slice it, input from newbies must be not only on, but also blasting, from the Main Page.

My two cents! ---MikeTheRed 23:50, 21 December 2005 (PST)

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Mike, you appear to have read my mind on the subject of collapsing the less important links under their own sections. I'm all for it.

About Geography, in addition to describing the more important battlescape features (Tip: Caution! Stepping on daisies make you walk slower), we could include a rough estimate for the content of terrain in each country - which can be useful for part of deciding where to place your base. But this would be such a small section it could slip in anywhere relating to the land and its features.

Speaking of base matters, I was going to suggest collecting them all into Base Management (UFO). Anything and everything you want to know about managing your base goes in here, from base placement, modules, construction tips/suggestions to populating it with people and goodies.

- NKF

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For what it's worth, it looks good to me.

I could start on the terrain write-ups. Are there hard stats on terrain around anywhere? I know it's 4 TU for a standard square of movement, think it's 5? over meadows (cursed daisies), and 6? through wheat or craters. Fun with incendiaries and hay bales, the wisdom of blasting orchards open... etc.

My only reservation is about the 'Overviews' section. I don't know what other overview pages there are, and I'm dubious about the value of collecting them together onto one entry. This is especially the case when we're going for brevity on the main page. {erhaps we should just roll the overviews into their repsective entries, and give them good billing on whatever page that the TOC entries land on. --Papa Legba 22:14, 25 December 2005 (PST)

Isn't this discussion page getting a little too big? ;)

One thing I just noticed: the only existing references to the X-COM timeline is on the UFO Defense section. Since the rest of the timeline is missing (something I am going to correct tonight) I've been thinking about the way the UFOPedia is organized. Right now there's plenty of technical information and playing tips regarding the first game, reflecting a gaming/modding orientation. This is quite natural to happen, considering how UFO is considered by many the best game of the series but at the same time it excludes the rest of the series. For instance, if one looks at the page concerning Sectoids there's all you need to know for the first game but there are no references to their appearance on Interceptor/Enforcer/Apocalypse. I think that we can have a more 'global' look upon the entire X-COM universe that should be reflected on the Main Page. I will try to explain this idea in more detail later.

Hobbes 12:54, 27 December 2005 (PST)