Talk:Main Page
New issue: I wish there was a more obvious place for the pages "Damage", "Explosions", and a new one I'm about to make, "Experience Training". To me, Damage and Explosions in particular seem a bit too good to be buried down under layers. But they don't really fit anywhere near the top of menus neatly. It's not just Weapons, it's not just Soldiers. Anyone else have ideas? ---MikeTheRed 19:07, 2 Dec 2005 (PST)
(Snipped for brevity - basically "We're working on it!" )
NKF, I'm not sure the the whole Main Page needs an overhaul. But that too is fine, as long as it works. Like you, I'm not sure just what might be best... but I too wish things were different, somehow. Perhaps in the meantime, I'll put a link for Damage, Explosions and Experience Training under the Main Page topic "Missions".
Also, NKF: Right, this Talk page could be cleaned up. Anybody is welcome to take a whack. I've been busy lately, but might find some time, soon.
Transclusion looks cool... thanks for experimenting; maybe it'll payoff big.
- ---MikeTheRed 15:02, 8 Dec 2005 (PST)
Hi all. Just to let you all know that I'm gonna have a crack at sorting out the issues with filetype uploads, spammers, restrictions for unregistered users, and adding new administrators. I'll start tomorrow night, now that I have my broadband back and I've just about settled in to my new place, I should be able to find more time for this stuff :)
Keep up the good work guys, the wiki has expanded far further than I imagined it would :)
I've now upgraded MediaWiki to the latest stable version. This seems to include more features for restricting editing, which I will enable ASAP.
In the mean time, users should now be able to upload files with the following extensions: PNG, JPG, JPEG, GIF, ZIP, DOC, XLS, RAR, DAT and PDF.
- ---GazChap
Ah - much better. Thanks, GazChap!!!
Ops, why not we make a page to discuss issues. For example, I am seeing that links to the new document types are not quite working right and wonder if anyone can help. And/or the new page could be a place to propose redesigns, etc. Or maybe we should just do it here?
- ---MikeTheRed 00:24, 10 December 2005 (PST)
I'm still eager to drop the suffix (UFO Defense) from most of the UFO pages, or at the very least shorten it to (UFO). Mainly for the sake of expediency. Hah.
- NKF
FWIW, I just found that saying something like [[Soldiers (UFO Defense)|]] causes the link to be Soldiers (look closely on Edit). Still, there's every reason to take all the (UFO Defense) away from the core articles, and let the rest add their difference. My two cents ---MikeTheRed
Main Page Table Proposal
ABRIDGED by --Papa Legba 00:51, 19 December 2005 (PST) I've cut out the parts of the matter that seem settled. Here are some outstanding issues:
I suppose we'll stick with the monochrome scheme for now. It's adequate. But should we make it site-wide, or split it into three main categories. UFO using the site-wide templates, and TFTD and Apocalypse using slight variants of the scheme?
For example, TFTD and Apocalypse could look like:
| Terror from the Deep |
| The Sink |
| Rubber Ducky |
| Apocalypse |
| Doom |
| Gloom |
Apocalypse's table doesn't look right to me, but TFTD's might just work. But let's concentrate on the site-wide template.
The template will actually consist of three templates, the main one being the overall table style, and the other two for the look of the table heading and the subheading (basically lighter variant of heading). The last two can be implemented by way adding "heading" and "subheading" to the name of the template. - NKF
The different colors for the three game layouts: It might not be a bad idea, except for two things:
- Having three different-colored tables on the main page might look very angry fruit salad.
- What do we color pages that are shared between two games? (UFO and TFTD share several.)
Moderating the colors some:
| Apocalypse |
| Doom |
| Gloom |
| Terror from the Deep |
| The Sink |
| Rubber Ducky |
--Papa Legba 06:37, 16 December 2005 (PST)
By the way, we'll keep the table specs templates as well. In the future, we may want to change them a bit. Maybe even give them construction paper or graph paper backgrounds! Gasp, shock. Just a thought. For now, we can use the specs templates as another site-wide template for all spec tables.
So now we've got {{StdTable}}, which contains:
cellpadding = "4" style = "border:1px gray solid; border-collapse: collapse;"
And {{StdTable Heading}}, containing:
style = "font-weight: bolder; color: white; background: #bbb;"
I haven't created a sub-heading template for the moment, as I can't see any place in the main menu to stick one for the moment.
But when it's created, it'll look exactly like heading only the background colour will be set to #EEE.
- NKF
P. S: You can see what templates are used on a page when you enter the edit screen just under the save and preview buttons. This will be templates that were in the page in the previous save. Not in the current edit in progress. I think. Still, handy to know.
Just ported the TFTD menu over to the new format. I'd say the Xcom menu is decent for now, it seems like what's needed is someone to prune the Apoc menu.
Anyway, it looks great in Firefox. However...
I just loaded the main page up in IE 6, Windows XP. The horizontal lines represented by |- style = "border-top: 1px dotted;" aren't showing up at all. I might look into it later, but it's getting early here. --Papa Legba 00:51, 19 December 2005 (PST)
Don't worry about them. They're not essential, but are handy when they show up. Actually, if we can get away from using them at all, that'd be great. As for Apocalypse - ah, most of that section can be condensed. I originally put a number of the subsections in a little brainstorming session just to get some ideas out on the table. Then I think someone turned them all into links, then it just snowballed from there. I never intended them to actually become articles, but there you go. Ah, heh.
Speaking of splitting the table into Geoscape and Tactical sections, have a gander at the following:
| UFO Defense/Enemy Unknown |
| General |
| General Information |
| Geoscape |
| Base Facilities |
| X-COM Craft |
| Research |
| Unidentified Flying Objects |
| Global Issues |
| Economics |
| Battlescape |
| Ground Combat Units |
| Equipment |
I think I might be able to get away with taking the dividers out completely. The sub-heading's manual at the moment.
It's not perfect, but while I was bashing this together, a few things started to stick out. There's definite room for a bit more expansion in a number of new areas we've not really covered on.
Like geographic information about countries (really general stuff, like the type of terrain found in the countries, or actually, describing the terrain types, etc). Funding, market information and all that go under economics, I guess. Public relations is covered by scoring. Or maybe undocumented interface commands (like the instant Zoom in the Geoscape or for the Playstation door-opening trick in particular), stuff like that.
- NKF
Hi Everyone, I'm still here (lurking in the shadows). This site is changing so fast that I can't keep up with it all, so I'm just sitting back waiting for the dust to settle. Once it has, I'm sure I'll get back into the swing of things --Danial 05:02, 19 December 2005 (PST)
I fixed the dividers for IE, NKF. The trick is that the border styling must be attached to the table cell instead of the table row. In a world where strict W3 HTML conventions were followed, this wouldn't matter. Styling the cells seems to work for both IE and Mozilla, though, so I switched them all over.
So, instead of
|- style = "border-top: 1px dotted;" | [[Equipment (UFO Defense)|Equipment]]
You do
|- | style = "border-top: 1px dotted;" | [[Equipment (UFO Defense)|Equipment]]
I like the new layout, but "Economics" looks a little orphaned under "Global Issues." How about we give it some better billing:
| UFO Defense/Enemy Unknown |
| General |
| General Information |
| Geoscape |
| Base Facilities |
| X-COM Craft |
| Research |
| Economics |
| Unidentified Flying Objects |
| Global Issues |
| Battlescape |
| Terrain |
| Ground Combat Units |
| Equipment |
In the Geography section, I think there's one issue we should address: terrain sets. Notes on why fighting in deserts or snow is a good/bad thing (no cover for the aliens), tips for managing farmhouses on the farm set, etc. Come to think of it, the terrain set stuff will often come down to tactical advice-- maybe it belongs in the Battlescape section somewhere. --Papa Legba 10:19, 19 December 2005 (PST)
I think it should be in the Battlescape section.
--Danial 16:08, 19 December 2005 (PST)
I think you're right. So, we would have two sections: geography (the big picture) and terrain (the ground-level stuff). To save space, I've put it in the version above. Feel free to switch it around if you have a better idea for organization. --Papa Legba 21:21, 19 December 2005 (PST)
Valuable Real Estate
The most viewed part of the wiki-- the top part of the main page-- is pretty cluttered. If there are no objections, I'd like to put the Resources for Authors on the Community Portal page as NKF suggested, or at the very least below the UFOPeadia entries.
Also, I've used the __NOTOC__ tag to suppress the Table Of Contents on the main page. --Papa Legba 21:21, 19 December 2005 (PST)
Hi folks,
Wow, tons of great work! Unfortunately I just stumbled into Civ4 so I'm giving it some quality time. But I will stick to this site and XCOM, and eventually move to Project Xenocide some day. Great idea to separate Geo and Battle, NKF. Here are my two cents:
| UFO Defense/Enemy Unknown |
| General |
| General Information |
| Geoscape |
| X-COM Base Facilities |
| X-COM Craft |
| Unidentified Flying Objects |
| Research |
| Economics |
| Battlescape |
| Overviews |
| Mission Types |
| X-Com Soldiers |
| Aliens |
| Terrain (maybe - maybe not) |
| Scoring |
I have taken PL's latest proposal and run with it. Why do I choose this particular layout?
I prime decider is, "how often are folks going to use one particular area as a reference, over others". Anything on the main page should be important, and on a recurrent basis. This is not the place to make a "logical equal breakout". This is the place to make a "most used lookup" table, for two audiences: newbies, and diehards.
For this reason, I collapsed Base Facilities, XCOM Craft, UFOs, and Research into having one entry alone (each)... I feel that there really won't be that many times that folks want to look up only XCOM Craft armaments as opposed to XCOM Craft, or UFO Detection as opposed to Bases, or ... etc., etc. I also still don't see a need to break out Terror Units seperate from other aliens... do we ever face a combat field composed only of Terror Units? I don't see why they're so special. I propose either 2nd level headings of "Overviews" and "Alien Races" (the current Aliens), or just simply have one entry for "Aliens". Again the salient question is, how often are particular people going to be trying to access particular pages.
Some notes while I wordsmith my table:
- There is almost nothing under the short UFO Detection that isn't already under Base Facilities - doesn't warrant Main Page. It could get highlighted in a section of Base Facilities. There is a recent summary section on Detection that clears up the issue - but I don't not see it linked to on UFO Detection. Anyway, really, these short pages are not Main Page stuff IMO. This is not your grandpa's wiki any more.
- Give XCOM Craft Armaments a section on the XCOM Craft page. Not important enough for Main Page entry.
- Economics, more specifically, Manufacturing Profitability, is not important enough to take up two lines on Main. Why? People will consult it once (or a few times), see/print out the most profitable things, then never visit it again. Profitability should be second level, or there should simply an Economics entry with no 2daries. There are other important sources of income, such as country funding and loot.
- UFO Components is not that different from UFOs. It should be a section on UFOs.
- Alien Artefacts is a small page that's already covered under Weapons. Alien Research is likewise very small. Both of these should just be additional sections under the current Research.
- Missions, Scoring, and Geography/Terrain should be under Battle. That's what they really apply to. This changes the Battlescape portion a lot.
- Otherwise, under the Battlescape, I've re-organized stuff. First, Overviews. This is where most everything currently under Missions / General Tips should go. Then Mission Types. Then the real meat - soldiers and their gear. Finally, ancillary stuff like Terrain/Geography and Scoring. I'm not sure what everybody wants for terrain and/or geography, but to me it can only be of tertiary significance past all the other stuff. So it comes next to last. Scoring comes last because it happens last.
- "General Equipment" links to the current "Equipment", but "General Equipment" should be those things that are not weapons. Let's separate things out.
- Unless what you folks have proposed as Geography or Terrain is really crucial, I propose that it just becomes a Section or Link under Battlescape Overviews. It can't really be that important as to warrant Main Page, can it?
Yes, my menu is much shorter than previously. But don't make things long unnecessarily - the first rule of making a good site, is to key in on what's needed most. Just that - albeit for two audiences, newbie and diehard. Anyway, it is not to list out everything categorically and/or everything that has existed before. We're going for a major revamp. Let's majorly revamp!
My opinions are ONLY my own. What happens to this wiki is basically a majority vote. I myself do not have the time to restyle it. Which begs the next question - what happens to this wiki, is also a function of who has the time to do it, laugh. My proposal would take somebody a half a day to rewire. But it works for me, at first glance.
PL, that sounds like a good idea to suppress the TOC, it reduces the visual clutter.
I think it is very important to make it clear even to newbies, that their input is wanted and desired - we all were once somebody who knew nobody, wondering if anybody else shared our intense love for XCOM. I like the current way the Main Page is, with a bolded link at the bottom of the page asking for input. Any way you slice it, input from newbies must be not only on, but also blasting, from the Main Page.
My two cents! ---MikeTheRed 23:50, 21 December 2005 (PST)
Mike, you appear to have read my mind on the subject of collapsing the less important links under their own sections. I'm all for it.
About Geography, in addition to describing the more important battlescape features (Tip: Caution! Stepping on daisies make you walk slower), we could include a rough estimate for the content of terrain in each country - which can be useful for part of deciding where to place your base. But this would be such a small section it could slip in anywhere relating to the land and its features.
Speaking of base matters, I was going to suggest collecting them all into Base Management (UFO). Anything and everything you want to know about managing your base goes in here, from base placement, modules, construction tips/suggestions to populating it with people and goodies.
- NKF
For what it's worth, it looks good to me.
I could start on the terrain write-ups. Are there hard stats on terrain around anywhere? I know it's 4 TU for a standard square of movement, think it's 5? over meadows (cursed daisies), and 6? through wheat or craters. Fun with incendiaries and hay bales, the wisdom of blasting orchards open... etc.
My only reservation is about the 'Overviews' section. I don't know what other overview pages there are, and I'm dubious about the value of collecting them together onto one entry. This is especially the case when we're going for brevity on the main page. Perhaps we should just roll the overviews into their respective entries, and give them good billing on whatever page that the TOC entries land on. --Papa Legba 22:14, 25 December 2005 (PST)
Isn't this discussion page getting a little too big? ;)
One thing I just noticed: the only existing references to the X-COM timeline is on the UFO Defense section. Since the rest of the timeline is missing (something I am going to correct tonight) I've been thinking about the way the UFOPedia is organized. Right now there's plenty of technical information and playing tips regarding the first game, reflecting a gaming/modding orientation. This is quite natural to happen, considering how UFO is considered by many the best game of the series but at the same time it excludes the rest of the series.
For instance, if one looks at the page concerning Sectoids there's all you need to know for the first game but there are no references to their appearance on Interceptor/Enforcer/Apocalypse. I think that we can have a more 'global' look upon the entire X-COM universe that should be reflected on the Main Page. I will try to explain this idea in more detail later.
Hobbes 12:54, 27 December 2005 (PST)
I could start on the terrain write-ups. Are there hard stats on terrain around anywhere? I know it's 4 TU for a standard square of movement, think it's 5? over meadows (cursed daisies), and 6? through wheat or craters. Fun with incendiaries and hay bales, the wisdom of blasting orchards open... etc.
I posted a list of TU usage. It's here on the TU page.
--Danial 19:25, 27 December 2005 (PST)
Isn't this discussion page getting a little too big? ;)
My thoughts exactly :)
It sounds like we've reached a fair amount of consensus. But I guess we'll leave the exact details up to whoever does it :P ... it will take a few hours to do all the re-organization of small pages (and links to them) that I proposed.
NKF, X-COM Base Management works for me. One more menu entry simplified!
PL, the reason I proposed a Battlescape Overviews section is that there are a number of important "over arching" concepts that don't quite fit anywhere else. Things like Damage, Explosions, and a number of other things currently stashed under Missions - General Tips. Individually, none of them seem important enough to warrant a Main Page entry. But collectively, they are important concepts that might otherwise be lost in the noise if e.g. Explosions were only linked to on the Grenades page, etc. If you can think of a better way to have these entries fairly readily reachable from the Main Page, let us know your thoughts. FWIW I for one think that Terrain and/or Geography should probably be under Battlescape Overviews, instead of in its own Main Page link. ---MikeTheRed
Addendum: We should make a special page for questions/comments/issues to the admins. Not all special issues relate to the Main Page, after all. As for "where to put it", it needn't be obvious from the Main Page, but should quickly become clear to folks who are new to our wiki per se, but are old and wise hands to the net at large (via search or Main Page links).
Oi, can one of you admins make .TXT be an acceptable upload file extension. I want to upload the code to my program that did the Experience_Training#Kill_Modelling. I see no reason to subject the general readership to such droll reading by making it take up 250 lines of a wiki; only 1 in 200 that make it to my highly obscure page will care for the code, too. So, TXT should be cool. Should I become an admin too? ---MikeTheRed 00:18, 29 December 2005 (PST)
You've got a point about the overview page, Mike. I was just looking for the TU page off the main page, and it requires quite a bit of navigation to get to. --Papa Legba 10:33, 29 December 2005 (PST)
Right, I've converted the UFO table into the revised table, and have finally made the general sub heading template. ( {{stdTable Sub Heading}} )
It certainly looks much more compact.
I've taken the liberty to reduce the heading font by one point just as a trial. I don't know if it works or not.
Also, I've removed a few of my old comments. That's removed the complaint about the file being over 32k, at least. For now.
- NKF
Folks, I've been away playing Civ 4. But it'll be a passing fad. I've come to like this community, and XCOM is 10 years old. I will be back, smile.
NKF, the main page looks great IMHO. Clearly you took many things into consideration, including the "oomph" factor. The only thing I can suggest is that, in that very first full sentence in the top of the Main Page, have e.g. an underline link (no reason to change a single word!) to the main wikipedia XCOM link. Some folks will drop in totally out of the blue - that's their release valve to see, "ah, they're talking about a game".
Bravo and I hope you reworked all those little links I fretted over, to make the site more cohesive. I will spend a little time now reviewing Recent Changes but mainly only have time to look for big things.
Anybody's welcome to email me. I am around. Just conquering the Civ 4 world a few hundred times over, before I get back to any Alien Menaces, laugh. Anybody can clip out all I said above. This Discussion page needs a major cleanup. I'm sure Gaz would say the same. As for the major re-write of main page, and lack of discussion here past my last post - whatever happened was always up to, the person that chose to sink the time into it. We all had time to say our peace. NKF, you did a great job as far as I'm concerned. So a lot of this Discuss can be cleaned up.
---MikeTheRed 00:27, 14 January 2006 (PST)