Talk:Lobster Man
Can someone include the armor values for Lobstermen. Thank you! Jasonred 00:18, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- These things have armor?
- Off the top of my head, directional armor for a soldier class is 10 on beginner, 20 on other difficulty levels. Under armor, I think was half that value. Yes, plastic aqua armor has better defenses! These guys thrive of off the damage multipliers.
- Come to think of it, most of the alien pages don't have armor values listed. -NKF 00:09, 27 February 2009 (CST)
Weird. My very first mission against a lobsterman, I bombarded it with everything in my arsenal. And I had Gauss weapons too! I just managed to down it before my team ran out of ammo. BTW, this was in my noob days, where I had no qualms about using save and reload in-battle. Then the 2nd lobsterman showed up. So, everyone grab the loot, back in the submarine, and abort mission. Geez. Of course, come to think about it, 20 armor for lobsterman is equivalent to 100 armor vs your harpoons, and equivalent to 60 armor vs your Gauss? Or am I getting the damage formulas wrong? Jasonred 00:18, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- You're applying them to the wrong area. Damage multipliers are used on the gun shooting at them, not on the armor values. You take the weapon's base damage(1), multiply it by the modifier(2), then by the random 0-200% for the hit(3), then subtract the armor(4) from the result, and that's your damage dealt to HP(5). (1*2*3)-4=5. So a Jet Harpoon shooting a Lobsterman does on average all of 6.4 damage, and a Gauss Rifle will do 18 damage on average...and that's before you even factor in the armor. For many aliens, the damage multipliers are fairly low, so they don't make much of a noticable difference, but the high reducers for the Lobsterman change all that. They don't need heavy armor because the weapons do very little damage against them to start with. Of course, these multipliers are the same reason that Drills kill them...Lobstermen take 200% damage from Drills. So for a Heavy Thermic Lance, that's 150, times 200%(300), times 0-200%(We'll say 100 here and leave it at 300)...minus twenty armor. Shish-kebabs! Arrow Quivershaft 00:29, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- Working backwards, 20 armor against AP with a Damage Modifier of 80% translates to 20/.2 = 100 AP max damage (101 to penetrate and lower health). For Gauss it's 20/.3 = 66.667 = 67 Gauss max damage (68 to penetrate and lower health). So it's basically correct. By the way, I added armor stats to the article page as a test. Opinions on the layout, anyone? --Zombie 00:41, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- I know I know. Basically, I am saying that in order to break through 20 armor, with 80% reduction, an armor piercing round must do 100 damage minimum.
Either formula is equivalent when it comes to non-penetrating shots though. Though for a penetrating shot, it makes a LOT of difference whether you use the correct formula or not. Lobstermen and their damage modifier of 20% vs AP... hahaha... OMG. Basically, invulnerable vs AP... Jasonred 01:00, 27 February 2009 (CST)
For the standard armour displays, how about a standard table with the armor facing down the side and the rank across the top? Will need two for the beginner and standard levels. It might even be a good chance to revise the stat display as well, to eliminate the usage of preformatted text in the main articles. -NKF 00:45, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- Yeah, that's probably a better choice but it'll take some time to set it all up properly. I'll work on this tomorrow and get back to you. --Zombie 00:51, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- Actually, recall the UBK template I made to simplify drawing custom base design layouts where the template took arguments and slotted them into image filenames? Would it be worth taking that, and then modifying it extensively into a standardized alien/unit stat display sheet that we can use site-wide for UFO and TFTD? Perhaps not one big giant template (that would be unmanageable), but rather a few templates around groupings like stats, armor/damage modifiers. -NKF 00:59, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- Maybe, but it would be a monumental piece of work, I'd imagine. Not sure of the far-reaching effects of using multiple templates on a single page would be. I haven't seen any major slowdowns with multiple uses of the UBK on a page, but with something like stats, it might. It would probably be faster and easier to just code it up in HTML than parsing numbers into templates. HTML would probably make it a little easier for newbies to edit as well. What do you think? --Zombie 01:32, 27 February 2009 (CST)
Well, I don't think it would be too difficult to pull off. Understanding how parameters worked was the monumanetal phase! Heh. The template wouldn't be all that exciting. Just a simple transclusion page, though you'd pass parameters to it to populate the table you've set up. I'm assuming the usage would look something like:
{{The Template name|=
| Lobsterman |=
| 56-112 |=
| 90 - 125 |=
| (and so on until MC Strength stats) |=}}
Then when you save the article, you'll see it all laid out nicely tabulated plus all the bells and whistles!
Obviously, to make it simple for folks who want to insert this in any article, a handy dandy one prepared earlier with dummy entries like Name, TUs, Energy, etc would be of great assistance.
Now, for the template itself, what you do to place your parameters where ever you want is to insert {{{1}}} (that's three curly braces) where you'd like the first parameter (in this case "Lobsterman") to go. {{{2}}} for the second, and so on and so forth. The UBK mainly did its magic by inserting these parameters in between images links.
Hmm, that turned out to be a brief 101 on templates and parameters. Not sure if any of this will work right off - it's been ages since I learned it! It's partly why I recommended using the UBK as a starting point, as it has been known to work.
In any case, whip up the table and I'll see if I can make it work with parameters. -NKF 02:06, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- Just threw together this table in a hurry. Hope this is what you were after, NKF. --Zombie 20:48, 28 February 2009 (CST)
| Statistic | Soldier | Squad Leader | Technician | Navigator | Commander |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Time Units | 56-82 | 66-97 | 70-103 | 74-109 | 76-112 |
| Energy | 90-133 | 90-133 | 95-140 | 95-140 | 100-148 |
| Health | 90 | 110 | 115 | 120 | 125 |
| Bravery | 90 | 80 | 80 | 80 | 80 |
| Reactions | 60-81 | 65-88 | 70-95 | 75-102 | 80-108 |
| Firing Accuracy | 21-87 | 21-87 | 21-87 | 21-87 | 21-87 |
| Throwing Accuracy | 62 | 62 | 62 | 62 | 62 |
| Strength | 70-86 | 70-86 | 70-86 | 70-86 | 70-86 |
| M.C. Strength | 35-43 | 35-43 | 35-43 | 40-49 | 50-62 |
| M.C. Skill | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Melee Accuracy | 78-115 | 78-115 | 78-115 | 78-115 | 78-115 |
| Front Armor | 8-24 | 8-24 | 8-24 | 8-24 | 8-26 |
| L/R Armor | 8-24 | 8-24 | 8-24 | 8-24 | 8-26 |
| Rear Armor | 6-18 | 6-18 | 7-21 | 7-21 | 8-24 |
| Under Armor | 4-12 | 4-12 | 4-12 | 4-12 | 4-14 |
Having 75 to 76 fields for a single template may prove to be problematic in the implementation as well as the population. One solution would be to create a table for just one alien/rank and reuse the template for the various ranks - but then we'd end up with up to 5 tables. Mind you, that would be handy for species that don't have certain ranks, or terrorist units.
It might be easier to have a general stat range listing in the main article as we have now, but go into finer details on a larger dedicated spreadsheet page for all the statistics by rank and beginner/normal levels.
Anyhow I'll see what I can come up with using your table as a starting point.
-NKF 22:39, 28 February 2009 (CST)
- That is a very nice table but I can't find the melee strength (built-in HTH attack) - there is only the accuracy given. Does anyone know the number?
- The magnitude I would expect should be high enough to penetrate the side armor of magnetic ion armor but should often fail to penetrate the front plate.--Tauon 09:57, 12 January 2011 (EST)
Weapon Damage vs. Lobstermen
I decided to pretend to be Zombie tonight. Here's a table of each weapon and its normal damage and damage range, then its damage and damage range after its affected by the appropriate Lobsterman damage modifier:
| Weapon | Average Damage(normal) | Damage Range(normal) | Lobsterman Multiplier | Average Damage(Lobsterman) | Damage Range(Lobsterman) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Dart Gun | 16 | 8-24 | 20% | 3.2 | 1.6-4.8 |
| Jet Harpoon | 32 | 16-48 | 20% | 6.4 | 3.2-9.6 |
| GC-AP | 60 | 30-90 | 20% | 12 | 6-18 |
| HJ-AP | 40 | 20-60 | 20% | 8 | 4-12 |
| Gauss Pistol | 45 | 22.5-67.5 | 30% | 13.5 | 6.75-20.25 |
| Gauss Rifle | 60 | 30-90 | 30% | 18 | 9-27 |
| Heavy Gauss | 75 | 37.5-112.5 | 30% | 22.5 | 11.25-33.75 |
| Sonic Pistol | 80 | 40-120 | 50% | 40 | 20-60 |
| Sonic Rifle | 95 | 47.5-142.5 | 50% | 47.5 | 23.75-71.25 |
| Sonic Cannon | 130 | 65-195 | 50% | 65 | 32.5-97.5 |
| GC-HE | 65 | 32.5-97.5 | 30% | 19.5 | 9.75-29.25 |
| HJ-HE | 50 | 25-75 | 30% | 15 | 7.5-22.5 |
| Mag. Grenade | 50 | 25-75 | 30% | 15 | 7.5-22.5 |
| Mag. Pack | 100 | 50-150 | 30% | 30 | 15-45 |
| Sonic Pulser | 120 | 60-180 | 30% | 36 | 18-54 |
| PD Grenade | 70 | 35-105 | 30% | 21 | 14-28 |
| Small Torp | 80 | 40-120 | 30% | 24 | 16-32 |
| Large Torp | 90 | 45-135 | 30% | 27 | 18-36 |
| DP Launcher | 200 | 100-300 | 30% | 60 | 30-90 |
| Thermal Tazer | 80 | 40-120 | 110% | 88 | 44-132 |
| Thermal Shok | 120 | 60-180 | 110% | 132 | 66-198 |
| Vibroblade | 80 | 40-120 | 200% | 160 | 80-240 |
| Thermic Lance | 110 | 55-165 | 200% | 220 | 110-330 |
| Heavy Lance | 150 | 75-225 | 200% | 300 | 150-450 |
(Table updated to reflect that all TFTD weapons have 50%-150% damage range. Spike 10:56, 19 October 2012 (EDT))
Assuming 20 Front Armor / 10 Under Armor for our target (vs 24 Front / 12 Under on Superhuman), the Dart Gun, Jet Harpoon, HJ-AP, GC-AP and Gauss Pistol have no chance at all to punch through un-degraded armor, whereas the Gauss Rifle, Heavy Gauss, and direct hits with GC-HE, PD Grenades and even Large Torpedoes can only lightly injure them. Only with Sonic weapons, Disruptors, melee or stun weapons is significant damage reliably dealt with each hit. Even then, Lobstermen have 90-125 health, there aren't very many weapons that can whittle that away in a reasonable time frame. You can also see just how huge of an effect the 200% damage multiplier from the Drills has, which is why they simply murder the creatures. The only ranged weapon that has a chance of dropping a Lobsterman in one shot at above Beginner difficulty is the Thermal Shok Launcher (which will typically one-shot them); even the mighty DPL requires multiple hits to send these underwater demons back to where they came from. Arrow Quivershaft 01:19, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- Prime Weapon Analysis material there AQ! Interesting to consider how armour facing affect the damage (directional vs. under) though. For example, the average case scenarios for the sonic pistol and GC-HE come off as being almost equal (but not quite) after deducting their respective armor values. -NKF 02:06, 27 February 2009 (CST) (edit: doh, actually let me rethink that - forgot to deduct from the GC-HE)
- Yeah, I know underarmor is lower, but I was simply going for simplicity to point out that there is very little in the game that does respectable damage to these beasts. Factoring underarmor would change the numbers a bit, but not by a huge amount, since Lobsterman don't have massive armor values in the first place, as you mentioned above. The point is that X-COM doesn't have any reliable way of taking these beasts down at the beginning of the game, and even most of the alien weapons have trouble killing them. Any early-game Lobsterman sighting is a good excuse to scrub the mission immediately; you simply don't have any reliable way of taking them down, outside of the Thermal Tazer and MAYBE HJ-HE spammed on full auto. This is even MORE justification for my standard soldier equipment kit containing a Thermal Tazer; its the one starting weapon that can be used on them(to great effectiveness, I might add.) Arrow Quivershaft 02:16, 27 February 2009 (CST)
- Definitely a humbling experience to have just one lobsterman slaughter your entire crew when all you've got are gauss rifles and gauss pistols. I've actually managed it with the GC-HE, but the sheer number of shots required for just one would mean you'll have emptied your belts long before you've got half way through the lobstermen. -NKF 02:26, 27 February 2009 (CST)
Fanfic?
I'm challenging the "eat hearty after Lobster Man encounters" as possible fanfic. They're robots, and while TFTD is somewhat haphazard with science I don't think it's quite that retarded (in any case, I've never seen any reference to it in-game). I'll delete the references in a few days if not sourced. Magic9mushroom 17:54, 11 February 2012 (EST)
- Agreed. They are mildly amusing but there's no other justification. Move them off to fanfic i guess Spike 18:29, 11 February 2012 (EST)
- The eat hearty bit is a throwback to when we had much more lively albeit non-canon descriptions. Went hand in hand with the butter and salt and pepper references used in the text for the drills before they had an overhaul. May as well rewrite that bit out, it's not necessary anyhow. But regarding the Lobstermen, doesn't the autopsy text suggest it's organic with mechanical enhancements? NKF 03:05, 12 February 2012 (EST)
You're right that there could be organic components, but the references to it being an "amazing construction" and "carefully designed" (as opposed to "twisted" or "modified" or something) indicate it's something like a Terminator (appropriate comparison given their most prominent attribute) - it's got at the very least artificial bones and eyes and probably designed shell and brain as well (since it's got stuff hooked into it that the brain shouldn't be able to process). Would you want to eat a Terminator? Magic9mushroom 05:01, 12 February 2012 (EST)
- Definitely not the liquid metal variety. Man I wish the wiki had a smiley feature! I'm mainly mindful that the Aquatoids, like the Sectoids, have a bit of a b-movie mad-science approach to the creation of their war machines and make fusions of living creatures with machinery, like the Deep Ones and the Bio Drones. Purely mechanical creations would look more artificial, like the Cyberdiscs. Still, whether Lobstermen are edible is best left to the imagination. -NKF 00:46, 13 February 2012 (EST)